Cerberus Man Basic Member Posts:144  
| 4/17/2009 11:39 AM |
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Posted By EZ-E on 14 Apr 2009 12:00 PM Question is, will I be handicapped if I read the books in order but maybe skip a few in the process? Or should I get the missing books before proceeding to the next? Thanks for the feedback.
I want to add that you should check on the copyright page of Outlanders books to make sure series creator Mark Ellis wrote it. If his name isn't there, don't bother.
But keep in mind OL is far more intense and complex with a more "legitimate" SF focus than the childish nonsense that passes for SF in DL.
Things actually happen in OL books that change the series and the characters...up until recently it was not a static series. The books didn't end where they began. There's been a sense of history and progression in the OL series from the beginning.
"It's better to have a blaster and not need it than to need it and--"
"Oh, spare me," Brigid said irritably.
(Kane and Brigid Baptiste from Armageddon Axis)
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Jax2Published Author  Veteran Member Posts:269 
| 4/17/2009 2:33 PM |
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Posted By Cerberus Man on 17 Apr 2009 11:39 AM
I want to add that you should check on the copyright page of Outlanders books to make sure series creator Mark Ellis wrote it. If his name isn't there, don't bother.
Thanks for the push, but there are three books I did write wherein my name wasn't printed on the copyright page--deliberately left out due to fear of a burgeoning fan-following. The books are Equinox Zero, Talon and Fang and Sea of Plague. I didn't realize my name had been removed until it was pointed out here on good ol' Jamesaxler.com. The attempts to diminish my connection to OL started years ago...even when the GE blog got started, one of the first things posted there was a breathless little report wherein one of my cover concepts (which I had been turning in like clockwork for over a decade at that point) was attributed to the new art director.  But to give them their due, they did make correction.. Anyhow...speaking of blogs-- The publisher of my Everything Guide to Writing Graphic Novels has launched a blog and they've posted excerpts from that book. Give 'em a look at this link if you've a mind to- http://www.everything.com...ovels-the-beginning/ |
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JettaManDanBasic Member Posts:252 
| 4/20/2009 8:14 AM |
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for the OP - you can read the books out of order....they give a little blurb in the beginning that kind of recaps the main story - but the character developement is pretty linear....it might be a daunting task to start from the beginning and read them all as i have..but it has been a very enjoyable series and i look forward to every new one that comes out...
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Cerberus ManBasic Member Posts:144
| 4/20/2009 1:08 PM |
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I recommend reading the first seven books, from Exile to Hell to Iceblood in order. Mark nails everything down in those novels and they almost comprise one extended epic storyline.
It's a little easier to jump around after those seven books.
"It's better to have a blaster and not need it than to need it and--"
"Oh, spare me," Brigid said irritably.
(Kane and Brigid Baptiste from Armageddon Axis)
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The PhantomBasic Member Posts:219 
| 4/20/2009 8:21 PM |
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I agree as well.
One of the major elements of the beginning of the OL series is the characters discovering that there is so much more going on outside of their limited experience and knowlege of the world.
There is so much mystery involved, and reading about the characters discovery of all the stuff that is going on is one of my favorite aspects of the first seven titles, and in book seven, that is when the beans really get spilled. An awesome start to the series best enjoyed reading first, and in order.
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| 4/21/2009 12:14 PM |
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Mark I always wondered if you planned for the 7 books to be the set up for the entire series since you established so much in them--the real story behind the redoubts and how the mat-trans units operated, why time travel couldn't work to keep the nukecaust from happening, the great stuff about the Tuatha da Danaan, the Anunnaki, who and what the gray aliens really were --not to mention the introduction of Sindri.
That was a lot of ground to cover in 7 books!
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Jax2Published Author Veteran Member Posts:269
| 4/21/2009 8:41 PM |
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Yeah, with ten years worth of hindsight, I guess it was indeed a lot of ground to cover.
But, no--I didn't have a plan.
As I've posted before, the original premise of Outlanders was set in contemporary times and was much more military-SF...it was actually startlingly close to what Stargate SG-1 evolved into, even though it predated SG-1's debut by a couple of years.
However, all of the material I'd created for that first concept (called Major Arcana) eventually showed up in OL, from the interphaser to the Tuatha De Danaan to the Annunaki...even Colonel Thrush.
It wasn't easy trying to force all of those elements into a postnuke setting (especially a posntuke setting as contradictory and often just plain silly as the DL one) but I tried to come up with explanations that although they weren't completely satisfactory, I could least live with.
In some ways I viewed OL (and I guess even DL to some extent) as the sequel to Major Arcana...that OL came about because the original group of characters failed in their mission.
But when I wrote them I didn't have in mind that those first seven books were all part of a single interconnected storyline, although in retrospect I can see they actually are.
When I crammed all the Major Arcana material into a postnuke setting, it added layers of complications so I I had to spread out backstory and so forth over several books.
I did intentionally create several continuing sub-plots that ran at least through the first 15 or so books--a practice I'd picked up from reading Marvel Comics when I was a kid.
Since Outlanders was the only GE series written by one author at the time, that approach was a novelty.
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skullspliter New Member Posts:63 
| 4/27/2009 4:38 PM |
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After reading a couple books so far i like the series but i checked the books it seams they are putting in new aruthers  if you mind was there a falling out (I'm sorry if these question have been answered. |
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Ron MilesWebsite Owner  Commander In Chief Posts:864 
| 4/27/2009 4:41 PM |
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My understanding (and I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong): Although Mark Ellis has expressed an interest and willingness to write additional books in the Outlanders series, he has not been offered a new contract to do so since he completed Ghost Walk. That may or may not change in the future, only time will tell.
"Sadly then I knew the answer. All her life she was a dancer, but no one ever played the song she knew." - The Residents
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Jax2Published Author Veteran Member Posts:269
| 4/27/2009 6:12 PM |
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Sorta correct...as far as it goes.
I'm willing to discuss it. |
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| 6/1/2009 3:18 AM |
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Posted By Cerberus Man on 17 Apr 2009 11:39 AM
Posted By EZ-E on 14 Apr 2009 12:00 PM Question is, will I be handicapped if I read the books in order but maybe skip a few in the process? Or should I get the missing books before proceeding to the next? Thanks for the feedback.
I just noticed my question being transferred to the Outlanders forum. Thanks. I'm following the advice of the replies that I got.
I just finished #7 (having only skipped #4 but it's ordered now). I've gotta say, Mark Ellis has created some excellent characters all around. Like any good story, the author must draw the reader in and make them take an active interest in their plights.
Call me a freak but I'd rather tussle with Domi rather than Brigid. 
I now have 8-12 on hand which I will read in order. After those, I'll read "Children of the Serpent" on thru #44 which I also currently possess. Anybody see a problem with this approach? Will I miss out on any major developments by skipping from 13 to 33?
I see that Jax2 is Mark Ellis. I'm glad to see that he has a continued interest in his works. Alan mentioned in one of his blogs that a writer must write to satisfy his self. Sure, there's truth in that but an author darn well better write for the fans as well if he wants bacon on the table. But I think both Alan and Mark have succeeded in doing both.
I think perhaps the biggest reward in authoring books, especially a series with such cult followings, is the response from the readers. It seems that the publishers and editors both are unappreciative bureaucrats looking to turn a quick buck while treating the heart and soul of the projects, the authors, no better that a draft mule. Lots of respect out to you guys for the BS you've endured! And thanks for the hours of entertainment!
p.s. It just dawned on me while reading OL7 that I've never noticed Israel being mentioned once in either DK or OL. This seems odd to me considering how Israel has always played a critical role in history and religion. Any feedback on this?
Vic
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| 6/1/2009 9:49 AM |
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Posted By EZ-E on 01 Jun 2009 03:18 AM
I now have 8-12 on hand which I will read in order. After those, I'll read "Children of the Serpent" on thru #44 which I also currently possess. Anybody see a problem with this approach? Will I miss out on any major developments by skipping from 13 to 33?
Most definitely! 15 through 17 is the Imperator Wars trilogy (Doom Dynasty, Tigers of Heaven Purgatory Road) which introduces the character of Sam the Imperator. If you don't know who he is, then the revelations in Children of the Serpent won't make much sense. You should also read The Dragon Kings duology, Devil in the Moon and Dragoneye and even Talon and Fang. These are all books that relate directly to the core mythology of the series--also new characters and even new tech are added to OL. As you've seen so far, OL isn't as episodic as DL so it's not as easy to jump around the books at random. Unlike OL, things change...and the characters even change their clothes once in awhile!  |
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| 6/1/2009 9:50 AM |
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One thing I would really like to see is Mark creating a book of Major Acana to see what OL could have been w/o GE forcing the post nuke setting. Either in novelization form or as a graphic novel. I know there would have to be some change as Mark said he used a lot of plot/character info in OL, but I think it would still be very cool
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| 6/2/2009 11:00 AM |
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I agree--very cool!
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| 6/11/2009 1:21 PM |
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Thanks for the tips, Daniel! I'll follow your advice. I actually picked up 15 copies I needed on ebay at a good price so I'll fill in the missing books and read the series in order. I have nearly all of them now, anyway.
Outer Darkness is my favorite book so far. Of course, it wouldn't have made much sense if I hadn't read the previous books. But I can feel for Kane's desire to stay in a functional, ordered world. It was interesting to see the story play out with Col. Thrush. Of course, I was somewhat handicapped since I didn't read #4 until after #10 since I didn't get until later. But the story recaps itself well and I was pretty much filled in. Still, I have a big aversion to not reading the books in order since Mark Ellis has a linear approach to his story telling.
There's zero doubt that I'm hooked on the story now. And, I can't believe that I'm saying this, it is actually much better than DLs. Gasp! Blasphemy!
I was very disappointed, though, when I found out in book 4 that their universe is not our own. They have a time line that diverged from our own in the 1980's. Loved it when Dr. Tanner made his guest appearance, though! By the three Kennedy's, I mean it. My memory really kind of sux but didn't that scene mirror an identical one in a DLs book? It seems that it did.
Now, a question to a writer. I'm an x-ray tech and, as one, I'm quite familiar with anatomic and positioning terms. The prone position is lying face down and supine is the opposite, face up. Yet, it seems that all authors use the terms interchangeably. For instance, in book 4, it is mentioned that in nearly all of the jumps, the transportee usually always ends up flat on their backs. In practically the next sentence, Mark refers to them in the prone position when they are really supinated. Yeah, it may sound anal but what can I say. 17 years in the field has conditioned my mindset. :þ So, prone just means recumbant, lying down to most?
One more anal point. OK, you can slap me if you see me. But Mark made a thorough description of the radial artery where DeFore makes an injection. But, arteries are not used for injections, veins are.
Dispite my minor criticisms, Mark Ellis is one of the most creative genius' that I have ever read. I love that guy!
Thanks for the entertainment.
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The PhantomBasic Member Posts:219
| 6/11/2009 2:21 PM |
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Posted By EZ-E on 11 Jun 2009 01:21 PM
I was very disappointed, though, when I found out in book 4 that their universe is not our own. They have a time line that diverged from our own in the 1980's. Loved it when Dr. Tanner made his guest appearance, though! By the three Kennedy's, I mean it. My memory really kind of sux but didn't that scene mirror an identical one in a DLs book? It seems that it did.
Yes you are correct. In Dark Emblem, the Outlander crew briefly showed up in a gateway, when Tanner showed up in the gateway in Omega Path. |
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Cerberus ManBasic Member Posts:144
| 6/11/2009 3:42 PM |
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The OL/DL universe can't be our own...I don't know about yours, but my January 20th, 2001 came and went without a single nuclear explosion. "It's better to have a blaster and not need it than to need it and--"
"Oh, spare me," Brigid said irritably.
(Kane and Brigid Baptiste from Armageddon Axis)
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| 6/11/2009 4:24 PM |
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Tell me it ain't so!!  Since the early books were written before then......... |
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| 6/11/2009 6:29 PM |
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Actually if you read the forword to Pilgrimage to Hell its obvious the 'Axlerverse" and our own were never the same.
And, I can't believe that I'm saying this, it is actually much better than DLs. Gasp! Blasphemy!
Way back when on the first Axler board--not Rons'--them was fighting words!
But most everybody who gave OL a fair chance came to the same conclusion.
Dispite my minor criticisms, Mark Ellis is one of the most creative genius' that I have ever read.
Agreed--too bad GE looks at that quality as a drawback and not an asset.
Made it real hard to replace him with any old hack who needed to make a car payment! |
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346 
| 6/11/2009 10:08 PM |
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Posted By Raboy on 11 Jun 2009 06:29 PM .
Agreed--too bad GE looks at that quality as a drawback and not an asset.
Made it real hard to replace him with any old hack who needed to make a car payment! Uhh, you got it assbackwards. If GE looks at quality as a drawback, wouldn't it make it real EASY to replace him? And the really, really smart "old hacks" don't buy their cars on time; they buy them with cash from the HUGE lump sum advances.  |
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| 6/12/2009 9:55 AM |
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It made it easy to replace him but not easy to pretend that anybody could be plugged into OL and nobody would know the difference or care.
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/12/2009 10:35 AM |
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Posted By Raboy on 12 Jun 2009 09:55 AM
It made it easy to replace him but not easy to pretend that anybody could be plugged into OL and nobody would know the difference or care. But isn’t that what they've done with every other series they’ve ever published? If no author is special, then NO AUTHOR IS SPECIAL. Einstein’s definition of insanity: repeating same procedure, expecting different result. |
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| 6/12/2009 12:00 PM |
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Better to bring up the truth than to pretend repetition of bad treatment makes it okay.
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/12/2009 12:19 PM |
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Posted By Daniel on 12 Jun 2009 12:00 PM
Better to bring up the truth than to pretend repetition of bad treatment makes it okay.
I'm really not getting this. Obviously GE thinks it's okay. They've been running the same bs for more than a quarter century. The idea that acting continually shocked and outraged by what's happened to OL is going to change anything is just ...  well, I give up. |
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| 6/12/2009 2:11 PM |
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Posted By AP on 12 Jun 2009 10:35 AM
Einstein’s definition of insanity: repeating same procedure, expecting different result.
LOL! In that case all those DL fans who have been posting about new guns for the last 10 years must really be lunatics! IMO it doesn't hurt to remind the so-called GE editors that not all of the readership have no memories or can't tell the difference between a good book and a bad book. The fans of your DL novels have been doing the same thing. |
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/12/2009 2:55 PM |
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Posted By Raboy on 12 Jun 2009 02:11 PM
Posted By AP on 12 Jun 2009 10:35 AM
Einstein’s definition of insanity: repeating same procedure, expecting different result.
LOL!
In that case all those DL fans who have been posting about new guns for the last 10 years must really be lunatics!
IMO it doesn't hurt to remind the so-called GE editors that not all of the readership have no memories or can't tell the difference between a good book and a bad book.
The fans of your DL novels have been doing the same thing. What all this comes off as, IMHO, is public masturbation. It might get you (and three or four others) off to endlessly flog the issue/thereby renewing your tumescent agitation, but trust me, after the first hundred or so exposures (a number surpassed in early 2005, BTW) it ceases to be a crowd-pleaser. It has become the OL equivalent of “new guns for Ryan and the companions,” which some posters on this forum (you included) have implied is a topic for wankers. As to what DL fans do or don’t do in regard to my work on the series, it’s moot. But for the one book left in the pipeline I am gone.  |
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| 6/12/2009 3:51 PM |
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Since the 'new guns for DL" crowd was defended by pointing out that though the topic was a groaner for veteran board members there were new members who hadn't been exposed to it as much and they shouldnt be cheated out of the chance to become as sick of it as the rest of us. The same standard should apply here.  Besides as long as your DL books are read it isn't moot. So-called GE editors can try to get readers to believe that you didn't write them but if we know better why should we cooperate with that? |
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/12/2009 4:22 PM |
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Posted By Raboy on 12 Jun 2009 03:51 PM
Since the 'new guns for DL" crowd was defended by pointing out that though the topic was a groaner for veteran board members there were new members who hadn't been exposed to it as much and they shouldnt be cheated out of the chance to become as sick of it as the rest of us.
The same standard should apply here.
You’re right. Ron should add two folders: DL shit we are sick of; OL shit we are sick of. All newbies would be directed there to interact with each other (until they burn out on the topics) before posting on the big people’s board. Eventually, of course, the entire content of the site would be put in one folder or the other, but still that should get us well into 2020 ... |
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Cerberus ManBasic Member Posts:144
| 6/13/2009 10:53 AM |
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Posted By AP on 11 Jun 2009 10:08 PM
Posted By Raboy on 11 Jun 2009 06:29 PM .
Agreed--too bad GE looks at that quality as a drawback and not an asset.
Made it real hard to replace him with any old hack who needed to make a car payment! Uhh, you got it assbackwards. If GE looks at quality as a drawback, wouldn't it make it real EASY to replace him?
Actually Raboy said GE looked at Mark's talent as a drawback, but they probably look at at quality period as a drawback, too. Is that the way it has to be if you're a full-time GE writer--the worse you are, the safer you are? "It's better to have a blaster and not need it than to need it and--"
"Oh, spare me," Brigid said irritably.
(Kane and Brigid Baptiste from Armageddon Axis)
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/13/2009 11:50 AM |
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Posted By Cerberus Man on 13 Jun 2009 10:53 AM
Is that the way it has to be if you're a full-time GE writer--the worse you are, the safer you are?
I worked for them for 25 years, I think only Mike Newton has worked for them longer, guess that makes me one of the worst of the worst. Actually, GE is oblivious to your conception of "talent" and "quality." All it cares about is whether the entertainment units maintain a minimum level of sales. A numbers game. It takes a couple years (so they say) to figure out how well each unit sells, so each newbie author has a built-in grace period. As I understand it, if sales of a particular author show a steady decline over several titles (that can't be compensated for by sales of the other authors working on the series), it's bye-bye time. But in reality, because of the pressure of the production schedule you have to screw up pretty badly to get the axe--as in (my personal favorite) take their advance money but never write the books.  |
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| 6/14/2009 8:16 AM |
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Posted By AP on 13 Jun 2009 11:50 AM
As I understand it, if sales of a particular author show a steady decline over several titles (that can't be compensated for by sales of the other authors working on the series), it's bye-bye time.
Maybe thats why Victor Milan complained on his blog that he had been booted off the Rogue Angel series--he was bitching about the bad reviews on Amazon. I looked at them and surprise! they were virtually the same kind of criticisms posted about his OL books. |
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/14/2009 10:24 AM |
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Posted By Raboy on 14 Jun 2009 08:16 AM
Maybe thats why Victor Milan complained on his blog that he had been booted off the Rogue Angel series--he was bitching about the bad reviews on Amazon.
I looked at them and surprise! they were virtually the same kind of criticisms posted about his OL books.
I know it's really exciting to find someone who agrees with you , and sorry to break your bubble (not really), but there is no evidence that bad reviews by a handful of people on Amazon have any correlation to book sales. I have been told that GE doesn't sell many books on Amazon, and that its powers-that-be pay no attention to them or to Amazon rankings. Witness the reviewers who complained endlessly about some of Andy Boot's DL books, but people BOUGHT THEM anyway. Some bestsellers get bad reviews on Amazon and still remain bestsellers. Witness Lee Childs' recent Jack Reacher book, Nothing to Lose: 360 reviews (not a measly three or four), and a two-and-a-half star average. I'm not saying bad reviews don't matter. I'm saying the effect is indeterminant, except for the mad-thumping of the reviewers' hearts and the reddening of their faces. |
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| 6/14/2009 11:44 AM |
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Sorry to break your bubble but it was Milan who brought up the bad Amazon reviews of his Rogue Angel and him being booted from the series.
The conclusion you can draw is that the bad reviews could be a reflection of the overall sales of his RA books or it could be something else entirely.
I don't care one way or the other--I don't read the RA series.
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| 6/14/2009 12:18 PM |
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Going by what Mark posted on his own forum a while ago, GE sometimes contracts books years in advance of their publication.
By the time the bad reviews of the books by Andy Boot (or even Victor Milan) started piling up, five or six could have already been bought and put on the publication schedule.
So it might seem like people are continually buying books they don't like, but in reality the books could have been scheduled a couple of years before.
If bad reviews reflect poor sales, GE wouldn't see a correlation for at least that length of time.
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/14/2009 1:50 PM |
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Posted By Raboy on 14 Jun 2009 11:44 AM
Sorry to break your bubble but it was Milan who brought up the bad Amazon reviews of his Rogue Angel and him being booted from the series.
The conclusion you can draw is that the bad reviews could be a reflection of the overall sales of his RA books or it could be something else entirely.
I don't care one way or the other--I don't read the RA series. I just read the blog post. Although Milan mentions getting taken off RA and several paragraphs later the negative reviews on Amazon, he makes no direct connection between the two. Sounds to me like he just wants people who like his books to review them. I'm sure it means the world to him that you don't read RA. I know it nearly brought me to tears. |
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/14/2009 1:54 PM |
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Posted By Daniel on 14 Jun 2009 12:18 PM
Going by what Mark posted on his own forum a while ago, GE sometimes contracts books years in advance of their publication.
By the time the bad reviews of the books by Andy Boot (or even Victor Milan) started piling up, five or six could have already been bought and put on the publication schedule.
So it might seem like people are continually buying books they don't like, but in reality the books could have been scheduled a couple of years before.
If bad reviews reflect poor sales, GE wouldn't see a correlation for at least that length of time. As far as I know Mark Ellis is the only author who got that many book contracts in advance--because he was the creator and only author on the OL series for years. Like I said, GE doesn't care about Amazon because they don't sell many books that way. |
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| 6/14/2009 4:01 PM |
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Posted By AP on 14 Jun 2009 01:50 PM
I just read the blog post. Although Milan mentions getting taken off RA and several paragraphs later the negative reviews on Amazon, he makes no direct connection between the two. Sounds to me like he just wants people who like his books to review them.
I'm sure it means the world to him that you don't read RA. I know it nearly brought me to tears.
Milan posted 'I’ve been less-than-ceremoniously dumped from writing for the series" and then complains about the bad Amazon reviews. Same post and same topic. Thats the connection. Milan and you could cry me a river...and I sill woulnd't read Rogue Angel!  |
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/14/2009 4:45 PM |
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Posted By Raboy on 14 Jun 2009 04:01 PM
Milan posted 'I’ve been less-than-ceremoniously dumped from writing for the series" and then complains about the bad Amazon reviews. Same post and same topic. Thats the connection.
Do you practice defiant stupidity on a daily basis, or is it just a weekend thing? If it’s the former, it must be a real challenge for the people who have to interact with you. You just happened to be reading Vic’s blog? An author you clearly despise? But not really looking for something (anything) to support your oft-repeated opinions? Strange hobby, but I guess it makes a nice change from pulling wings off flies. The flies probably appreciate it, too.  |
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Millennial ManNew Member Posts:34
| 6/14/2009 5:33 PM |
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Milan in his comments page says he didn't like the reviewers take of Annja Creed. saying she acted 1}like a man 2} socipathic. Then in the comments page he describe why he wrote Outlanders the way he did.
1. GE didn't want him to touch the main charcters.
2.Stay away from major events.
Sounds like he did no.2 without doing no.1. So there is a question of whether or not he read the novels or was constrained by GE.
In the end he says he hopes GE gives him his own series.
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| 6/14/2009 5:45 PM |
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Posted By AP on 14 Jun 2009 04:45 PM
You just happened to be reading Vic’s blog? An author you clearly despise? But not really looking for something (anything) to support your oft-repeated opinions? Strange hobby, but I guess it makes a nice change from pulling wings off flies. The flies probably appreciate it, too.
What opinions do you mean? I read a lot of blogs instead of getting on the muscle over trivia--something you apparently you enjoy very much. Go to town, dude. |
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| 6/14/2009 5:48 PM |
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Posted By Millennial Man on 14 Jun 2009 05:33 PM
Milan in his comments page says he didn't like the reviewers take of Annja Creed. saying she acted 1}like a man 2} socipathic. Then in the comments page he describe why he wrote Outlanders the way he did.
1. GE didn't want him to touch the main charcters.
2.Stay away from major events.
Sounds like he did no.2 without doing no.1. So there is a question of whether or not he read the novels or was constrained by GE.
If he hadn't read the novels he sure as hell shouldn't have been writing the series. He also said "we all got enormous reams of shit from the cadre of Outlanders fans who found unforgivable the sin of Writing While Being Anyone But Mark Ellis." Talk about an enormous ream of s**t! If there was an unforgivable sin it was of Writing OL Without Really Writing OL and Getting Mad Because Readers Pointed It Out! |
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Jax2Published Author Veteran Member Posts:269
| 6/14/2009 6:08 PM |
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Er...I don't know what this debate is really about but since my name keeps being invoked, I 'll weigh in to opine--Yeah, it is trivia...certainly too trivial for people to get stressed out over something that happened quite some time ago.
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/14/2009 6:40 PM |
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Posted By Raboy on 14 Jun 2009 05:45 PM
What opinions do you mean? I read a lot of blogs instead of getting on the muscle over trivia--something you apparently you enjoy very much. Go to town, dude.
Forgive me, I’ve never tried to communicate with a goldfish before. Should I be doing something with my hands? |
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The PhantomBasic Member Posts:219
| 6/14/2009 6:56 PM |
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I agree with Ellis, this topic is trivial.
For me, I couldn't give a rats ass what is behind the scenes regarding Milan's work on RA. I read all the RA books so far, and have enjoyed most of them, including Milan's contributions.
He had written them since book two, so there wasnt much in the way of him stepping into an already established series.
As for OL, I never plan on reading Milan's entries in that series, because OL was unique from the beginning, being that the creator and author wrote the series until just recently. Those are the books I am interested in, and based on reviews of the Milan titles, Milan's dont fit in the continuity of the rest of the series, so I skipped them.
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| 6/15/2009 10:04 AM |
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Posted By Raboy on 14 Jun 2009 05:48 PM
He also said "we all got enormous reams of shit from the cadre of Outlanders fans who found unforgivable the sin of Writing While Being Anyone But Mark Ellis."
OMG! What a lie! Just scanning the reviews of Milan's OL books here and on Amazon proves that never was the case!  He produced poorly researched and poorly conceived novels--he should just own it instead of fabricating a conspiracy. Is there a "Alex Archer" conspiracy of fans who give his Rogue Angel books negative reviews?  |
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Ron MilesWebsite Owner Commander In Chief Posts:864
| 6/15/2009 11:52 AM |
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Oh, please. The minute that it was announced back in 2003 that starting with Awakening the titles were going to alternate between Mark and another author, this very message board erupted with declarations that people weren't event going to bother to read the other books and would treat them like alternate reality out-of-continuity stories. That was six full months before the first one came out, and judgments were being made entirely on the "It's Not Mark" basis. Same thing again last year when it was revealed that other authors would be writing.
Whether or not those books turned out to be any good (they didn't), at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that you were never going to like them under any circumstances, and effectively stated as much months before they came out simply because they were guilty of Writing While Being Anyone But Mark Ellis.
"Sadly then I knew the answer. All her life she was a dancer, but no one ever played the song she knew." - The Residents
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/15/2009 1:11 PM |
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Posted By Daniel on 15 Jun 2009 10:04 AM
Posted By Raboy on 14 Jun 2009 05:48 PM
He also said "we all got enormous reams of shit from the cadre of Outlanders fans who found unforgivable the sin of Writing While Being Anyone But Mark Ellis."
OMG! What a lie!
Just scanning the reviews of Milan's OL books here and on Amazon proves that never was the case!
I just checked the quoted comment in context on Milan’s site. It refers to complaints posted on a previous incarnation of his own Forum (he and his webhost are the “we”). The complaints he's talking about have nothing whatsoever to do with ja.com or Amazon. Because that forum crashed awhile back and all the posts were lost, you could have no idea what they were about unless you made them yourself, or you're talking out of your "other mouth." |
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Jax2Published Author Veteran Member Posts:269
| 6/15/2009 1:59 PM |
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Posted By Ron Miles on 15 Jun 2009 11:52 AM
Oh, please. The minute that it was announced back in 2003 that starting with Awakening the titles were going to alternate between Mark and another author, this very message board erupted with declarations that people weren't event going to bother to read the other books and would treat them like alternate reality out-of-continuity stories. That was six full months before the first one came out, and judgments were being made entirely on the "It's Not Mark" basis. Same thing again last year when it was revealed that other authors would be writing.
Ron, with all due respect I don't remember that at all.
Inasmuch as I would have been the one to let it be known that Milan was contributing to the series and inasmuch as the only other contributor up to that point had been Mel Odom and his work certainly wasn't prejudged with the "It's Not Mark" attitude there would have been no reason for anyone, much less Daniel to greet the news with the kind of hostility you cite. The reviews of Milan's first OL contribution, "Awakening" were basically fair, including the one posted by Daniel. The hostility increased and developed as Milan's books continued to show a disdain for established continuity and characterization as well as his insistence on cramming the thinly disguised Guardians from his cancelled series into my ongoing series. But the response to his books did not start out as negative or hostile. I don't recall any declarations of the sort you reference erupting before the fact. If Milan wants to revise history on his blog by claiming years later that he was helpless from the get-go against the vicious onslaught of "It's Not Mark" fans, that's his issue or self-delusion or whatever. I really don't see why it should spread over here, do you? |
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mikeclrBasic Member Posts:197 
| 6/15/2009 2:39 PM |
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Ya know, if you take Victor Milan's OL novels out of context and just as pulp potboilers they really ain't half bad...
"Courage is not a man with a gun in his hand. It's knowing you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Atticus Finch
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| 6/15/2009 5:37 PM |
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I referred ONLY to Milan's statement of "the cadre of Outlanders fans who found unforgivable the sin of Writing While Being Anyone But Mark Ellis."
I don't know whether that cadre posted such things on his forum and I don't care, but I know that the real hostility toward Milan's OL books didn't develop until AFTER his second or third ones were published, definitely not before the first one was published.
I had never heard of him or the Guardians series until AFTER Awakening was published and I learned about that on JA.com from members who pointed out the similarity between Team Phoenix and the Guardians.
If I had the "It's Not Mark" prejudice from the beginning, then logically I would have trashed Mel Odom's OL books, too....which, of course, I didn't.
I liked them all, even the one nobody else did--Sargasso Plunder.
All anybody has to do is look at the general tone of the reviews of Milan's OL books here and on Amazon and see that the reason his OL contributions weren't well-received was not because of the "It's Not Mark" attitude, but simply because he wrote bad OL books.
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
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Cerberus ManBasic Member Posts:144
| 6/16/2009 9:26 AM |
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Posted By Daniel on 15 Jun 2009 05:37 PM
All anybody has to do is look at the general tone of the reviews of Milan's OL books here and on Amazon and see that the reason his OL contributions weren't well-received was not because of the "It's Not Mark" attitude, but simply because he wrote bad OL books. So endeth the lesson! "It's better to have a blaster and not need it than to need it and--"
"Oh, spare me," Brigid said irritably.
(Kane and Brigid Baptiste from Armageddon Axis)
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Millennial ManNew Member Posts:34
| 6/16/2009 10:40 AM |
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Posted By Cerberus Man on 16 Jun 2009 09:26 AM
Posted By Daniel on 15 Jun 2009 05:37 PM
All anybody has to do is look at the general tone of the reviews of Milan's OL books here and on Amazon and see that the reason his OL contributions weren't well-received was not because of the "It's Not Mark" attitude, but simply because he wrote bad OL books.
So endeth the lesson!
No, the the lesson is ended when Victor Milan pushes delete and everyone who has made his life hell goes into computer limbo!
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/16/2009 10:40 AM |
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Posted By Cerberus Man on 16 Jun 2009 09:26 AM
Posted By Daniel on 15 Jun 2009 05:37 PM
All anybody has to do is look at the general tone of the reviews of Milan's OL books here and on Amazon and see that the reason his OL contributions weren't well-received was not because of the "It's Not Mark" attitude, but simply because he wrote bad OL books.
So endeth the lesson!
Milan got like 25 reviews for his six OLs on this site, that averages out at about four reviews a book (some of the rankings were better than mine). He got about the same number of reviews on Amazon. So each of his contributions weren’t well-reviewed by fewer than eight people. GE prints at least 20K copies of each book. As important and informed as you think you are, the only “lessons” here (and everyone else has already learned them) are that your world is very, very small (teensy-weensy), and that you know absolutely nothing about statistics.  |
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One Eye ChillsNew Member Posts:13 
| 6/16/2009 11:23 AM |
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As usual, a spot-on speculation from someone with a brain, and who is unbiased.
Its funny, when Victor Milan first came onto the scene with Outlanders, I and everybody I knew loved his contributions.
But yet, at that time, here there were Otlanders Only members that didn't like it.
Now, after just trying out the last two Outlanders novels by the 2 new writers, I wished he was back!
They hated Mel Odom too. And he was a hit-or-miss like the rest of them, but has gone on and written gold elsewhere.
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Jax2Published Author Veteran Member Posts:269
| 6/16/2009 12:06 PM |
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The stickiing pont of this debate--if it could be called that--is whether there was active hostility directed toward Milan's OL books BEFORE they were published or did it come about AFTER they were published...
Or as he (falsely) stated, if he was the victim of "the cadre of Outlanders fans who found unforgivable the sin of Writing While Being Anyone But Mark Ellis."
It's obvious that the answer is AFTER they were published and read.
I assume the reviews of his books here and on Amazon were referenced to demonstrate that the responses, negative or otherwise were on a book-by-book basis, not whether statistically the reviews made any difference to anything, certainly not to Harlequin's bottom line.
In general, Mel Odom's contributions were fairly-received, but all the books by him, Milan and even by me appeared to have been read before the reviews were posted.
That's all there is to it.
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One Eye ChillsNew Member Posts:13
| 6/16/2009 4:34 PM |
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So Jax2, what is your take on why the last 3 Outlander books haven't been reviewed here...or anywhere for that matter?
I think there may be one or two on Amazon.com, but nowhere are there droves of ans worldwide writing reviews. Why is that?
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mikeclrBasic Member Posts:197
| 6/16/2009 5:09 PM |
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“All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again,”
"Courage is not a man with a gun in his hand. It's knowing you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Atticus Finch
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| 6/16/2009 6:27 PM |
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Strong cornfield vibe.
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OutlandersVeteran Member Posts:163 
| 6/16/2009 8:21 PM |
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Regarding the past few OL that Mark didn't write...
First, nothing by that prick Doug is ever going to be read by me. So automatically count those off the list.
As for the other two, I read Death Cry. Interesting concept for sure, execution, not bad, but the characters and background were WAY the F*** off. Big shocker there.
Brigid being referred to as a LIBRARIAN? Or for that matter, calling a soviet trooper she just knocked out loverboy?
Lakesh being the ABSOLUTE ruler of Cerberus? Giving out missions? Not calling people friend or dearest?
Just way too much crap like that. The clown (yes, CLOWN) who wrote the book should take time to actually read several of the OL novels so that he can get a basic grasp of the way the characters interact, and act period.
At the very least, get a grasp of the actual command structure....
It rates a 1.5 for me.
I also picked up Shadow Box (despite the worst. Outlanders. Cover. Ever.) because it is sort of an unofficial sequel to Mask of the Sphinx.
I'm only 100 pages into it, but again the clown that's writing for the series really needs to read a few previous books to get the characters right.
Better than Milan, but not as good as Odem.
Also, other than that, I refuse to get into this rapidly devolving pissing match.
Chris
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Cerberus ManBasic Member Posts:144
| 6/16/2009 9:32 PM |
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Mark created Outlanders.
Therefore, most Outlanders fans are fans of Mark.
When Mark no longer wrote Outlanders, those fans stopped buying the books, stopped reading the books, stopped reviewing the books.
So endeth the lesson.
"It's better to have a blaster and not need it than to need it and--"
"Oh, spare me," Brigid said irritably.
(Kane and Brigid Baptiste from Armageddon Axis)
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/16/2009 10:50 PM |
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Posted By Cerberus Man on 16 Jun 2009 09:32 PM
Mark created Outlanders.
Therefore, most Outlanders fans are fans of Mark.
When Mark no longer wrote Outlanders, those fans stopped buying the books, stopped reading the books, stopped reviewing the books.
So endeth the lesson. You're right that the fewer than 10 people who used to regularly review the OL books on this site stopped reviewing them ... eventually... and presumably buying and reading them. You need to spell out what you think those ten people have to do with "most" OL fans, and why the series hasn't gone tits up their absence before your lesson actually endeth. |
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The PhantomBasic Member Posts:219
| 6/17/2009 2:40 AM |
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I have always wished that more people reviewed the books. It is obvious that only a small percentage of readers ever post reviews on them. With the reviews available on each book, it is not a very accurate composite of the reader base, going by just the reviews on this site and/or Amazon.
But they are all we have to work with, and it seems to have a certain consistancy if you look past the extreme favorable and unfavorable reviews. That is the best measure that can really be used at this point.
What is worth reading and not worth reading can be determined in general, but any reader is free enjoy whatever books by whatever authors they see fit. Griping about them just isn't gonna help matters, or it would have made a difference by now. GE just pumps out the books, it's what they do. Enjoy what you can and forget about the rest. Consider the ones you dont like as filler.
Just my two cents.
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| 6/17/2009 12:47 PM |
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Reading an OL novel written by somebody other than Mark is like watching a 'Seinfeld' episode with a stranger playing Jerry. It doesnt matter how good it is, it wouldn't be a "real' Seinfeld episode.
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mikeclrBasic Member Posts:197
| 6/17/2009 5:37 PM |
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I barely have enough time to read books let alone write reviews for 'em...or at least what could be considered proper reviews...
N' AP makes a very good point, if the bulk of OL readers quit reading the books not written by Mark wouldn't the series have gone belly up like Room 59?
Lesson? Not so sure about that one...
"Courage is not a man with a gun in his hand. It's knowing you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Atticus Finch
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mikeclrBasic Member Posts:197
| 6/17/2009 5:37 PM |
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Phantom makes a good point as well I should add.
To me it would seem that a lot of people who post reviews do so because they seem to have an agenda of some sort...whether for good or ill...
"Courage is not a man with a gun in his hand. It's knowing you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Atticus Finch
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Jax2Published Author Veteran Member Posts:269
| 6/17/2009 6:12 PM |
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Just an FYI...
It takes about two years for Harlequin to get the final sales figures on their books.
At this point, they've just now tabulated the numbers on Skull Throne.
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/17/2009 6:48 PM |
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I might have this messed up, numbers and dates are not my strong suit, but didn't Room 59 first come out in January of 2008 and go tits in April of 2009? Tabulation of the full final sales figures (every copy accounted for, as in a royalty statement) wouldn't be necessary if things are Way-Bleak--as in towering boxes of unsold books left in the warehouse. The slack for a new series that doesn't catch on has got to be minimal compared to a series that's been around and successful for a decade.
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mikeclrBasic Member Posts:197
| 6/17/2009 8:28 PM |
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Ah ha...I see. Makes sense!
"Courage is not a man with a gun in his hand. It's knowing you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Atticus Finch
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| 6/26/2009 2:59 PM |
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The way I see it, all of this pitching and bitching about GE has about as much chance of changing their MO as the recent tea parties have of changing Obama's socialist policies. It ain't gonna happen because they just don't care.
p.s. I'm on OL17 now. It just keeps getting better but I haven't gotten to my namesake's books yet, Victor Milan. :þ
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| 6/26/2009 6:34 PM |
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Posted By EZ-E on 26 Jun 2009 02:59 PM
I'm on OL17 now. It just keeps getting better but I haven't gotten to my namesake's books yet, Victor Milan. :þ
You'll know because of the abrupt and sharp decline in the IQs of everything involved with OL--characters, plots, dialogue. |
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