Chickens and no thumbs.. thats what's stopping the first ever poultry brass band.. a shame.. a utter shame

Posted By Jax2 on 30 Jun 2009 01:07 PM

The whole idea was to draw readers back, book after book...that's why I introduced melodramatic sub-plots like the possiblity of past lives shared between Kane and Brigid, all the scheming intrigue with Beth-Li and made Lakesh's motives ambiguous for quite some time.

It worked with me...I was in officer's training school when I discovered OL and I had little time for recreational reading, but I never missed one of the series...although I wish now I'd skipped the Milan travesties...

...especially Refuge.  

CM....Just wondering...did you read VM's books entirely?  If you did....putting aside the complete lack of continuity and gross errors in characterization as well as numerous technological improbabilities and errors to existing tech, could you agree that as stand alone Sci Fi novels they were rather entertaining?  Just a thought.  When I first read them I thought "what the F*&^ is this sh!t?!! then I found that because the stories were actually imaginative and well written I forgot about the errors and noticed I enjoyed them.  Once i completely separated them from OL cannon and re read them I enjoyed them even more.  Just my opinion, and wondering if anyone else was able to do this?

I read every Milan fill-in up to "Refuge" then decided I had better things to spend my money and time on.

If you go through the reviews of Milan's fill-in OL books here you'll see why most fans didn't care for them. He was given every chance, cut every break. Personally I gave him three books to find his stride. That's why I didn't review his first two.

(That's also why Milan posting that nonsense about being victimized from the beginning by the "It's Not Mark" contingent was such a falsehood)

Bottom line for me--My recreational reading time is limited, so when I buy OL I expected to read about the characters and concepts I was familiar with.

When I read a Milan travesty, my expectations were not only dashed, they were urinated upon.

Milan hacked out complete fakes...okay, maybe if the books had been published as part of a completely different series, maybe I could have enjoyed them on their own merits---except for "Refuge" which was retarded by any standard.

But his books weren't part of a different series and they weren't promoted as being part of an alternate reality version of OL either. Readers bought them with the expectation they were getting the "real deal."

Therefore I and other fans felt cheated when Milan couldn't be bothered to get even the most obvious details correct....like the stuff that had been part of the series for the years. As Raboy aptly said, Milan always resorted to the Butt-Pull instead of research.

Over the years here, I've seen how fanatical some DL-Only hardliners can be about that series...that if the characters weren't EXACTLY the way Laurence James wrote them, then the writer needed to fired or even killed--and Laurence James didn't even create DL.

What do you think those fans reaction would have been when Mark wrote his first DL novel and he introduced a new cast of characters, putting Ryan and his group in the backseat (and describing Ryan has having two perfectly good eyes) and totally changed the long-established parameters of the series to suit himself...or because he was too lazy to do research?

In my opinion, the uproar would STILL be going on.

Besides, if an imaginative story is all it takes to make something good, then wouldn't the movie Batman and Robin be hailed as a classic instead of the travesty that killed the Batman movie franchise ... they had to totally reboot the whole thing with Batman Begins.

But even I have to say it was imaginative.

It just sucked s**t through a straw.

Like Milan's OL fill-in books.

Taking them as pure pulp potboilers I really enjoyed them. Particularly Lords of the Deep...

Posted By mikeclr on 13 Jul 2009 10:18 AM
Taking them as pure pulp potboilers I really enjoyed them. Particularly Lords of the Deep...

Ya it was good but my fave of them was "closing the cosmic eye"...LOL ...being Canadian, Refuge gave me some genuine chuckles. Fair enough CM. I understand your points and all of them are quite valid from a purists point of view...I myself have never been accused of  being organized or ordered in any way.LOL  In fact just yesterday my personality was akinned to John Candy.  One of the nicest things ever said to me in my opinion. John was a comic genius and was taken from us far to soon. CM your honesty more then makes my point, so thanks for that.  While I don't think VM should even be allowed to write any more OL novels, the books did point me to some of his other stuff and I realized what a quality writer he was when he wasn't buffaloing someone else's work.   He's like a genius child I guess....lots of talent and the mind of an adult but lacking maturity and wisdom to deal with criticism..

Posted By Cerberus Man on 13 Jul 2009 10:09 AM

In my opinion, the uproar would STILL be going on.

I agree.

Look at it this way--Mark's 1st DL novel, Stoneface is regarded by many as one of the best books in the whole series if not THE best one.

Milan's 1st OL novel, Awakening is regarded by many as one of the worst in the whole series--not THE worst since that 'honor' goes to Refuge IMO.

The difference is Mark really researched DL to get as much as he could right and wasn't content to just rehash old Laurence James plots and situations--instead he took off in a new direction but still kept all of this books feeling like the familiar DL.

He didn't introduce disguised versions of character he had written before (but I would have really liked to see Doc Savage and his men in DL!) and make them the stars. He knew the fans of the series wanted Ryan and the companions and thats what he gave us, not cramming new characters down our throats.

Mark has posted before that he offered his help to Milan to get details right but instead Milan chose the Butt-Pull Option.

If Milan is still upset over the generally negative reader reaction to his fill-in books he's got only himself to blame--he chose the Butt-Pull.

Like CM said--everybody was willing to give Milan a chance and he disappointed almost every time by turning out poorly researched and a lot of times just plain stupid books.

He's like a genius child I guess....lots of talent and the mind of an adult but lacking maturity and wisdom to deal with criticism..

I'm not a huge Victor Milan fan by any stretch but I do drop in on his blog regularly and he seems like a fairly average person. His reaction to criticism wasn't what I would call over the top by any means, I've certainly read worse. His blog can be occasionally entertaining, especially if you're a pet lover like me.

But in the end who cares, it's really all relative...he could be a raving and drooling nut-job for I all know...

Posted By mikeclr on 13 Jul 2009 03:03 PM 
His reaction to criticism wasn't what I would call over the top by any means, I've certainly read worse.

Nobody suggested his reaction to the criticism of his OL contributions were over the top...just dishonest.

If he were being honest with himself and others, he would accept that he did a sub-standard job of maintaining the integrity of what made Outlanders what it was.

His books weren't criticized until after it was apparent his work was sub-standard on many, many levels.

And as long as we're speaking of maturity, I found the tone of his work very immature compared to Mark's...childish, even.

LOL!  No Cerebus Man, you must be kiddin' me..say it isn't so!  What a surprise indeed!

It's the shocking revelations that make this board so much
fun!

(I just went over and read that comment again for shits and giggles, I didn't think it was really that dishonest either, but that's me...no biggie...)

Anyway... CM, you just keep on keepin' on dude! 

You're truly dedicated and that is to be respected!

I never consider the truth to be a shocking revelation...lol

Ummm...that was a joke, dude...well, an attempt at one...

Y'know...

When this Milan topic was revived a few weeks ago on another thread, I posted that it was years in the past and wasn't worth revisiting.

Obviously, a lot of people don't agree with me.

So okay--

I know more about the whole Milan Fill-In Debacle than anyone else here. I'm the authority on Jamesaxler.com.

Rather than engage in further passive-aggressive snark or continuing to argue from a position of "I know Domi isn't developmentally challenged but I still like her that way",  just bring your issues to me.

I'll answer the questions as best I can or swap strangleholds or whatever.

Posted By mikeclr on 13 Jul 2009 05:22 PM
Ummm...that was a joke, dude...well, an attempt at one...

lol I know, As was mine.  I dont know which emoticon to use to represent sarcasm

Actually. I must apologize to Mark.  I understand he was the main victim of the whole controversy. One author trying to undermine the dedication and hard work of another is inexcusable.  I won't and have never argued that.  That being said I have no clue what was going on in VM head when he pulled that stunt, and it was made even sadder by the fact that Victor is a talented Science fiction writer and the whole shenanigans was unnecessary.  Marks work speaks for itself and I hope you know Mark that I am a big fan.  All I was asking if anyone else agreed with my opinion of Victors writing.  I sincerely didn't mean for it to become CM and Rayboys cue to rehash old arguments. My bad.

No wait a sec man,I prefer Death Lands too,but I don't think the guy is saying the book is doomed sales wise. I agree it probably outsells Outlanders,but I think he is saying that the characters are ultimately doomed in the sense that Ryan and his group exist a hundred or so years and most likely die way before Kane and crew?
I might be wrong though?
I have to say that even though Ryan and his group appeal more to me Outlanders is also a good read and unfortunately sinse they are alive a century later than Ryan and his crew,then yeah,in that sense Ryan and his group are "doomed".In that sense only of course!

Posted By UrbanSavage on 13 Jul 2009 08:26 PM 
I sincerely didn't mean for it to become CM and Rayboys cue to rehash old arguments. My bad.

You asked me a question and I answered it. If you knew it was an old argument then I assume you knew my opinion beforehand so why ask me?

Besides...rehashing old arguments are part and parcel of any message board, particularly this one.

Otherwise the "new guns" discussion wouldn't be brought up in regards to DL with the regularity of bowel movements.

Just joking of course.
 

My apologies again...that may have came off a little pissy albeit unintentionally...all I meant was I just wanted to know if yourself and any others liked VM's writing outside the Axlerverse cannon. I just thought the long explanation of why and how was unnecessary as did Mark from where I sit.

Dude, you have nothing to apologize for...

Actually Mike...I felt CM deserved an apology of sorts because believe it or not , Ive been around this board as long as he has ( I joined the original board in 03 I think)  CM is a good guy and I understand his vehemence about the subject.  That being said, to reiterate I was only wondering if he thought VMs writing was good and weather he could have seen himself reading it were it not for (as I'll hereafter call it) "The Incident"..nothing more.