| 6/14/2009 5:48 PM |
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Posted By Millennial Man on 14 Jun 2009 05:33 PM
Milan in his comments page says he didn't like the reviewers take of Annja Creed. saying she acted 1}like a man 2} socipathic. Then in the comments page he describe why he wrote Outlanders the way he did.
1. GE didn't want him to touch the main charcters.
2.Stay away from major events.
Sounds like he did no.2 without doing no.1. So there is a question of whether or not he read the novels or was constrained by GE.
If he hadn't read the novels he sure as hell shouldn't have been writing the series. He also said "we all got enormous reams of shit from the cadre of Outlanders fans who found unforgivable the sin of Writing While Being Anyone But Mark Ellis." Talk about an enormous ream of s**t! If there was an unforgivable sin it was of Writing OL Without Really Writing OL and Getting Mad Because Readers Pointed It Out! |
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Jax2Published Author  Veteran Member Posts:269  
| 6/14/2009 6:08 PM |
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Er...I don't know what this debate is really about but since my name keeps being invoked, I 'll weigh in to opine--Yeah, it is trivia...certainly too trivial for people to get stressed out over something that happened quite some time ago.
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346 
| 6/14/2009 6:40 PM |
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Posted By Raboy on 14 Jun 2009 05:45 PM
What opinions do you mean? I read a lot of blogs instead of getting on the muscle over trivia--something you apparently you enjoy very much. Go to town, dude.
Forgive me, I’ve never tried to communicate with a goldfish before. Should I be doing something with my hands? |
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The Phantom Basic Member Posts:219 
| 6/14/2009 6:56 PM |
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I agree with Ellis, this topic is trivial.
For me, I couldn't give a rats ass what is behind the scenes regarding Milan's work on RA. I read all the RA books so far, and have enjoyed most of them, including Milan's contributions.
He had written them since book two, so there wasnt much in the way of him stepping into an already established series.
As for OL, I never plan on reading Milan's entries in that series, because OL was unique from the beginning, being that the creator and author wrote the series until just recently. Those are the books I am interested in, and based on reviews of the Milan titles, Milan's dont fit in the continuity of the rest of the series, so I skipped them.
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| 6/15/2009 10:04 AM |
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Posted By Raboy on 14 Jun 2009 05:48 PM
He also said "we all got enormous reams of shit from the cadre of Outlanders fans who found unforgivable the sin of Writing While Being Anyone But Mark Ellis."
OMG! What a lie! Just scanning the reviews of Milan's OL books here and on Amazon proves that never was the case!  He produced poorly researched and poorly conceived novels--he should just own it instead of fabricating a conspiracy. Is there a "Alex Archer" conspiracy of fans who give his Rogue Angel books negative reviews?  |
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Ron MilesWebsite Owner  Commander In Chief Posts:864 
| 6/15/2009 11:52 AM |
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Oh, please. The minute that it was announced back in 2003 that starting with Awakening the titles were going to alternate between Mark and another author, this very message board erupted with declarations that people weren't event going to bother to read the other books and would treat them like alternate reality out-of-continuity stories. That was six full months before the first one came out, and judgments were being made entirely on the "It's Not Mark" basis. Same thing again last year when it was revealed that other authors would be writing.
Whether or not those books turned out to be any good (they didn't), at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that you were never going to like them under any circumstances, and effectively stated as much months before they came out simply because they were guilty of Writing While Being Anyone But Mark Ellis.
"Sadly then I knew the answer. All her life she was a dancer, but no one ever played the song she knew." - The Residents
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/15/2009 1:11 PM |
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Posted By Daniel on 15 Jun 2009 10:04 AM
Posted By Raboy on 14 Jun 2009 05:48 PM
He also said "we all got enormous reams of shit from the cadre of Outlanders fans who found unforgivable the sin of Writing While Being Anyone But Mark Ellis."
OMG! What a lie!
Just scanning the reviews of Milan's OL books here and on Amazon proves that never was the case!
I just checked the quoted comment in context on Milan’s site. It refers to complaints posted on a previous incarnation of his own Forum (he and his webhost are the “we”). The complaints he's talking about have nothing whatsoever to do with ja.com or Amazon. Because that forum crashed awhile back and all the posts were lost, you could have no idea what they were about unless you made them yourself, or you're talking out of your "other mouth."  |
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Jax2Published Author Veteran Member Posts:269
| 6/15/2009 1:59 PM |
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Posted By Ron Miles on 15 Jun 2009 11:52 AM
Oh, please. The minute that it was announced back in 2003 that starting with Awakening the titles were going to alternate between Mark and another author, this very message board erupted with declarations that people weren't event going to bother to read the other books and would treat them like alternate reality out-of-continuity stories. That was six full months before the first one came out, and judgments were being made entirely on the "It's Not Mark" basis. Same thing again last year when it was revealed that other authors would be writing.
Ron, with all due respect I don't remember that at all.
Inasmuch as I would have been the one to let it be known that Milan was contributing to the series and inasmuch as the only other contributor up to that point had been Mel Odom and his work certainly wasn't prejudged with the "It's Not Mark" attitude there would have been no reason for anyone, much less Daniel to greet the news with the kind of hostility you cite. The reviews of Milan's first OL contribution, "Awakening" were basically fair, including the one posted by Daniel. The hostility increased and developed as Milan's books continued to show a disdain for established continuity and characterization as well as his insistence on cramming the thinly disguised Guardians from his cancelled series into my ongoing series. But the response to his books did not start out as negative or hostile. I don't recall any declarations of the sort you reference erupting before the fact. If Milan wants to revise history on his blog by claiming years later that he was helpless from the get-go against the vicious onslaught of "It's Not Mark" fans, that's his issue or self-delusion or whatever. I really don't see why it should spread over here, do you? |
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mikeclrBasic Member Posts:197 
| 6/15/2009 2:39 PM |
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Ya know, if you take Victor Milan's OL novels out of context and just as pulp potboilers they really ain't half bad...
"Courage is not a man with a gun in his hand. It's knowing you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Atticus Finch
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| 6/15/2009 5:37 PM |
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I referred ONLY to Milan's statement of "the cadre of Outlanders fans who found unforgivable the sin of Writing While Being Anyone But Mark Ellis."
I don't know whether that cadre posted such things on his forum and I don't care, but I know that the real hostility toward Milan's OL books didn't develop until AFTER his second or third ones were published, definitely not before the first one was published.
I had never heard of him or the Guardians series until AFTER Awakening was published and I learned about that on JA.com from members who pointed out the similarity between Team Phoenix and the Guardians.
If I had the "It's Not Mark" prejudice from the beginning, then logically I would have trashed Mel Odom's OL books, too....which, of course, I didn't.
I liked them all, even the one nobody else did--Sargasso Plunder.
All anybody has to do is look at the general tone of the reviews of Milan's OL books here and on Amazon and see that the reason his OL contributions weren't well-received was not because of the "It's Not Mark" attitude, but simply because he wrote bad OL books.
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
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Cerberus ManBasic Member Posts:144 
| 6/16/2009 9:26 AM |
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Posted By Daniel on 15 Jun 2009 05:37 PM
All anybody has to do is look at the general tone of the reviews of Milan's OL books here and on Amazon and see that the reason his OL contributions weren't well-received was not because of the "It's Not Mark" attitude, but simply because he wrote bad OL books. So endeth the lesson!  "It's better to have a blaster and not need it than to need it and--"
"Oh, spare me," Brigid said irritably.
(Kane and Brigid Baptiste from Armageddon Axis)
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Millennial Man New Member Posts:34
| 6/16/2009 10:40 AM |
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Posted By Cerberus Man on 16 Jun 2009 09:26 AM
Posted By Daniel on 15 Jun 2009 05:37 PM
All anybody has to do is look at the general tone of the reviews of Milan's OL books here and on Amazon and see that the reason his OL contributions weren't well-received was not because of the "It's Not Mark" attitude, but simply because he wrote bad OL books.
So endeth the lesson!
No, the the lesson is ended when Victor Milan pushes delete and everyone who has made his life hell goes into computer limbo!
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 6/16/2009 10:40 AM |
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Posted By Cerberus Man on 16 Jun 2009 09:26 AM
Posted By Daniel on 15 Jun 2009 05:37 PM
All anybody has to do is look at the general tone of the reviews of Milan's OL books here and on Amazon and see that the reason his OL contributions weren't well-received was not because of the "It's Not Mark" attitude, but simply because he wrote bad OL books.
So endeth the lesson!
Milan got like 25 reviews for his six OLs on this site, that averages out at about four reviews a book (some of the rankings were better than mine). He got about the same number of reviews on Amazon. So each of his contributions weren’t well-reviewed by fewer than eight people. GE prints at least 20K copies of each book. As important and informed as you think you are, the only “lessons” here (and everyone else has already learned them) are that your world is very, very small (teensy-weensy), and that you know absolutely nothing about statistics.  |
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One Eye ChillsNew Member Posts:13 
| 6/16/2009 11:23 AM |
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As usual, a spot-on speculation from someone with a brain, and who is unbiased.
Its funny, when Victor Milan first came onto the scene with Outlanders, I and everybody I knew loved his contributions.
But yet, at that time, here there were Otlanders Only members that didn't like it.
Now, after just trying out the last two Outlanders novels by the 2 new writers, I wished he was back!
They hated Mel Odom too. And he was a hit-or-miss like the rest of them, but has gone on and written gold elsewhere.
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Jax2Published Author Veteran Member Posts:269
| 6/16/2009 12:06 PM |
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The stickiing pont of this debate--if it could be called that--is whether there was active hostility directed toward Milan's OL books BEFORE they were published or did it come about AFTER they were published...
Or as he (falsely) stated, if he was the victim of "the cadre of Outlanders fans who found unforgivable the sin of Writing While Being Anyone But Mark Ellis."
It's obvious that the answer is AFTER they were published and read.
I assume the reviews of his books here and on Amazon were referenced to demonstrate that the responses, negative or otherwise were on a book-by-book basis, not whether statistically the reviews made any difference to anything, certainly not to Harlequin's bottom line.
In general, Mel Odom's contributions were fairly-received, but all the books by him, Milan and even by me appeared to have been read before the reviews were posted.
That's all there is to it.
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One Eye ChillsNew Member Posts:13
| 6/16/2009 4:34 PM |
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So Jax2, what is your take on why the last 3 Outlander books haven't been reviewed here...or anywhere for that matter?
I think there may be one or two on Amazon.com, but nowhere are there droves of ans worldwide writing reviews. Why is that?
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mikeclrBasic Member Posts:197
| 6/16/2009 5:09 PM |
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“All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again,”
"Courage is not a man with a gun in his hand. It's knowing you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what." - Atticus Finch
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| 6/16/2009 6:27 PM |
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Strong cornfield vibe.
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OutlandersVeteran Member Posts:163 
| 6/16/2009 8:21 PM |
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Regarding the past few OL that Mark didn't write...
First, nothing by that prick Doug is ever going to be read by me. So automatically count those off the list.
As for the other two, I read Death Cry. Interesting concept for sure, execution, not bad, but the characters and background were WAY the F*** off. Big shocker there.
Brigid being referred to as a LIBRARIAN? Or for that matter, calling a soviet trooper she just knocked out loverboy?
Lakesh being the ABSOLUTE ruler of Cerberus? Giving out missions? Not calling people friend or dearest?
Just way too much crap like that. The clown (yes, CLOWN) who wrote the book should take time to actually read several of the OL novels so that he can get a basic grasp of the way the characters interact, and act period.
At the very least, get a grasp of the actual command structure....
It rates a 1.5 for me.
I also picked up Shadow Box (despite the worst. Outlanders. Cover. Ever.) because it is sort of an unofficial sequel to Mask of the Sphinx.
I'm only 100 pages into it, but again the clown that's writing for the series really needs to read a few previous books to get the characters right.
Better than Milan, but not as good as Odem.
Also, other than that, I refuse to get into this rapidly devolving pissing match.
Chris
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