Outlanders Veteran Member Posts:163  
| 4/17/2009 2:25 PM |
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Ok, regarding the whole – Deathlands Vs. Outlanders issue that’s been going on for quite literally years now… it’s high time it stops.
There will always be people who prefer one compared to the other for various reasons.
I’ve made it very clear over the years my reasons for liking Outlanders over Deathlands, and I’m not about to restate these yet again.
The term ‘whipping a dead horse’ comes to mind here.
Bringing it up will do nothing but cause flame wars and hard feelings between the old guard and the newcomers here.
Besides, and I will state this about Outlanders and Deathlands. For the first approximately 40 issues of Deathlands there was continuity in part because Laurence James, and then the small group of authors who came later who actually communicated with one another wrote it.
With Outlanders, yes, it was mostly Written by Mark Ellis for the vast majority (as of this time) of the life of the series.
Now that he’s finished with the series – guess what? It’s going to go the way that Deathlands did. It will become a mirror image of Deathlands because one author ISN’T writing it any longer.
And no, I don’t count a particular narcissistic sociopath as the successor for Mark Ellis and no matter how many he writes for the series, he never will be Marks Successor.
So, the point I’m making here is very simple… the two series are now being constructed in the same manner and arguing which is better is a complete and total waste of time.
That’s my take on it. |
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346 
| 4/17/2009 3:10 PM |
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Posted By Outlanders on 17 Apr 2009 02:25 PM
Ok, regarding the whole – Deathlands Vs. Outlanders issue that’s been going on for quite literally years now… it’s high time it stops.
There will always be people who prefer one compared to the other for various reasons.
I’ve made it very clear over the years my reasons for liking Outlanders over Deathlands, and I’m not about to restate these yet again.
The term ‘whipping a dead horse’ comes to mind here.
Bringing it up will do nothing but cause flame wars and hard feelings between the old guard and the newcomers here.
Besides, and I will state this about Outlanders and Deathlands. For the first approximately 40 issues of Deathlands there was continuity in part because Laurence James, and then the small group of authors who came later who actually communicated with one another wrote it.
With Outlanders, yes, it was mostly Written by Mark Ellis for the vast majority (as of this time) of the life of the series.
Now that he’s finished with the series – guess what? It’s going to go the way that Deathlands did. It will become a mirror image of Deathlands because one author ISN’T writing it any longer.
And no, I don’t count a particular narcissistic sociopath as the successor for Mark Ellis and no matter how many he writes for the series, he never will be Marks Successor.
So, the point I’m making here is very simple… the two series are now being constructed in the same manner and arguing which is better is a complete and total waste of time.
That’s my take on it. Bravo.  Like LJ, like Don Pendleton, like Warren Murphy, the complete cycle of Jax2's original work remains. GE can't alter that body of work by substituting new authors. Time can't alter that, either. Really, more important than an "eternal debate" (on a pair of book lines produced, until now, in completely different ways) is the immutable, lasting nature of a single-author-developed and-written series. |
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| 4/17/2009 7:43 PM |
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Posted By AP on 17 Apr 2009 03:10 PM
Really, more important than an "eternal debate" (on a pair of book lines produced, until now, in completely different ways) is the immutable, lasting nature of a single-author-developed and-written series.
That's the main reason I could never get into any of the other GE series. It's a back-assward way to do it IMO. I started with Outlanders so most of the other GE series seemed rather generic in comparision even before I knew that they were produced by the revolving door system of writers. |
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| 4/18/2009 10:04 AM |
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Posted By Outlanders on 17 Apr 2009 02:25 PM
no matter how many he writes for the series, he never will be Marks Successor.
Amen!  |
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 4/18/2009 11:06 AM |
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Posted By Raboy on 18 Apr 2009 10:04 AM
Posted By Outlanders on 17 Apr 2009 02:25 PM
no matter how many he writes for the series, he never will be Marks Successor.
Amen! Actually, there are two “eternal debates,” or more accurately one eternal debate and one interminable monologue (punctuated by dittos). Vitriol over “what has happened to OL” (how much you hate the fill-ins) is as pointless—and as dull—as the shouting matches over which series is “better.” Venom isn’t going to change anything, no matter how many times it’s spewed. You’re kidding yourself if you think not buying the post-Jax2 OL books in protest makes a difference to GE. You’re kidding yourself if you think you are going to start some kind of reader groundswell that reinstates the old status quo. And IMHO, the chuckle-factor of grandiosity starts to fade after the zillionth repetition. GE doesn’t care what you think, or what books you buy. If one series tanks, they will blame the writers for hire for the tanking, and cobble together another literary dog’s dinner to take its place. That’s the nature of the beast. Mark has new, original work on the market, and more new work coming out. Speaking for myself, but that’s what I want to read about—not the rehash of a rehash of rehash. |
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Cerberus Man Basic Member Posts:144 
| 4/18/2009 1:51 PM |
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I think the reaction is due to the GE editorial attitude that any writer can churn out OL and the fans are too stupid to know the difference between his work and the fill-in-flavor-of-the-month....like the series is no different that the Executioner or even DL.
With a series that has pretty much been written from the beginning by multiple writers, the readers become accustomed to extreme shifts in quality, consistency and continuity.
That's not the case with Outlanders and frankly I believe the vast majority of OL fans are mainly fans of Mark's work. As Chris pointed out, OL can't be sustained by taking the same approach to it as DL.
OL is not formula...that's one reason it has lasted as long as it has and built such a devoted base of fans.
With DL, it's the comfortable formula that keeps readers coming back. They know they can miss several years worth of books, come back to the series and not need a primer. It will still be the same. Same clothes, same guns, same catch-phrases.
Laurence James didn't create DL whereas OL is Mark's creation all the way down the line. If he's prevented from continuing to write it for whatever reason, I personally don't think readers are invested enough in the series without his guiding hand to long tolerate seeing it become a formulized copy of DL.
As it, the OL books that have come out since Mark's Ghostwalk are just rehashing all of his concepts anyway, from the Millennial Consortium, to the Anunnaki Overlords to even reviving Colonel Thrush.
From what I see, none of the fill-in OL writers are extending themselves to come up with anything remotely original.
They're just churning out copies of books and plots that were written years ago.
That's not enough to maintain the fan-base Mark built in my opinion.
If you visit Mark's forum, there's always more discussion about his other work than there is his work as James Axler. There are a number of members who haven't read OL or DL, they're fans of his work on Doc Savage and other things...even stuff I've never read, like Ninja Elite!
Discussing his work as James Axler on Jamesaxler.com seems appropriate to me.
"It's better to have a blaster and not need it than to need it and--"
"Oh, spare me," Brigid said irritably.
(Kane and Brigid Baptiste from Armageddon Axis)
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 4/18/2009 2:06 PM |
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Posted By Cerberus Man on 18 Apr 2009 01:51 PM
I think the reaction is due to the GE editorial attitude that any writer can churn out OL and the fans are too stupid to know the difference between his work and the fill-in-flavor-of-the-month....like the series is no different that the Executioner or even DL.
Discussing his work as James Axler on Jamesaxler.com seems appropriate to me.
The OL series was different; it is no longer. If you'd read and understood what I've posted here in the last month or so, you'd realize that 1) OL was an anomaly in the GE-verse; and 2) that, based on company history (and the crushing burden of one writer producing all those book), it was inevitable that sooner or later it would be reduced to writer-stable production. GE doesn't think OL fans are stupid sheep; in order to think that they would have to give a crap. IMO, bitching about fill-ins isn't "discussing" Mark's work. It's the S. O. (boring) S. But what do I know?  |
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The PhantomBasic Member Posts:219 
| 4/18/2009 8:10 PM |
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Fact is, LJ's books have been written, they are still there, will always be there, and the same goes for Mark's OL books.
For whatever reason the original author leaves the series, he leaves, probably never to come back again.
But the series goes on because its all about business. GE sells books. If readers want to continue reading the series regardless who writes them that is fine. If readers want to quit reading the series because the original writer is no longer around, just appreciate the books that have been and move on. To those readers the series might as well be over.
Either way, what has been is still there, and ranting about fill-in writers is understandable, but there comes a time when you realise that the series isn't what it was, and just move on and read something else. You can always re-read the books you loved again.
I had to give up on Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series even though he was STILL writing them, because he just gave up and started writing crap. Pissed me off to hell, but I remember the first six books and how much I enjoyed them, and determined that book six was the end of the series, and I moved on. This is the same attitude I think readers who read OL because of Mark's work should take.
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| 4/19/2009 8:59 AM |
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I didn't know this was an "eternal debate"...I thought it had been settled years ago.
My thoughts:
Although I love Mark's Outlanders, I'm not a fan of post-apocalyptic stories since most of them come off as redneck power fantasies.
I'm much more of a fan of space opera science-fiction, like Star Wars, Star Trek and especially Firefly/Serenity.
That's why I think Mark's Death Hawk is vastly superior to Outlanders--it's a graphic novel but it has great concepts, great characters and if it was a book or TV series it could run forever.
As far as the "Cool Quotient" goes, Death Hawk is a lot cooler than anything I've read published by Gold Eagle.
If you're a fan of Mark's work and haven't picked it up yet, you really should.
Frankly, I'd prefer Mark work on continuing Death Hawk either as novels or graphic novels than write more Outlanders. |
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The PhantomBasic Member Posts:219
| 4/20/2009 12:20 AM |
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I wish I had the time to check out Mark's current projects. With being busy, and loaded with shelves of books I have yet to get to, and not being much of a comics guy, I doubt I ever will be able to get into any of his other series.  One thing I will say, if Mark is happy doing what he is doing now, then that is more important to me than if he was still writing OL books under a situation where he was no longer happy to write them. I will check out some of the post-Ghostwalk "fill-in" stuff in the future - if I ever have the time- but for now I still have a few Ellis OL books I still want to read. Currently am enjoying Rim Of The World.  |
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Jax2Published Author Veteran Member Posts:269 
| 4/20/2009 8:09 AM |
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Thanks for the kind words, everybody.
Speaking of Death Hawk and new projects, an interview with me wherein I discuss both subjects--among other things--has just been posted here:
http://comicnews.info/?p=6068 |
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Cerberus ManBasic Member Posts:144
| 4/20/2009 1:09 PM |
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Cool beans! "It's better to have a blaster and not need it than to need it and--"
"Oh, spare me," Brigid said irritably.
(Kane and Brigid Baptiste from Armageddon Axis)
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| 4/21/2009 12:08 PM |
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Posted By The Phantom on 20 Apr 2009 12:20 AM
Currently am enjoying Rim Of The World.
Thats a great one all right--great stuff with the djinn in the opening and the journey across Africa in the old train made it a classic! |
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JettaManDanBasic Member Posts:252 
| 4/21/2009 1:13 PM |
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reguardless of who is writing the series i'm gonna end up sticking with both series just because i have too much time and enjoyment wrapped up in both...i'm hoping the cadre of writers keeps the ideas pretty safe and tries to improve upon them...Mark has done a fantastic job and i hope that spirit would live on for the series to continue...
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)3az )3aziahBritish Bloke Veteran Member Posts:1060 
| 4/21/2009 5:39 PM |
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I stick with both series as I look on them as tired and old faithful hounds. You know you need to part company with them but keep them around just in case they may get better soon.
DL has picked up latley and hopefully will stay that way OL on the other hand appears to be going the other way.
Still it keeps the world in partial balance I guess ?
=============================== Billy Fish: He wants to know if we are gods.
Peachy Carnehan: Not gods - Englishmen. The next best thing.
Please check out my FLICKR photos
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| 4/21/2009 6:56 PM |
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Posted By )3az )3aziah on 21 Apr 2009 05:39 PM
OL on the other hand appears to be going the other way.
That could probably be reversed with a phone call to the right writer/creator. That reminds me-- I was cruising the net last night and came across this-- http://www.grayapocalypse.com/index.html |
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Jax2Published Author Veteran Member Posts:269
| 4/21/2009 8:32 PM |
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The publisher sent me an ARC (advance reading copy) of Gray Apocalypse a few months ago and asked if I'd give it a read...and if I liked it, would I provide a little promotional blurb.
So I read it, liked it and provided a little promotional blurb. I had forgotten all about it, actually. Thanks for the heads' up.
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Millennial Man New Member Posts:34
| 4/22/2009 12:50 AM |
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First off I like OL but I don't have this cult-like feeling about Mark Ellis that he is a God: and can do no wrong. And I get somewhat annoyed when people say they like Mark. I would like to say what about the current OL novel. The reply may come back is it wasn't written by Mark so it doesn't count. Just because something changes doesn't mean its all bad. We all can disagree whether any novel met our standards.
Since Mark has left other writers have taken the pen to OL and that is called change. I am always anxious to see what other people have to add to the OL universe. Even Milan who has come under some flak has added a new twist to the universe like Hoskins and Doug will. This means their take on OL will be different. Nothing remains the same.
Now on the subject of DL I enjoy the series. Yes there were many books that should have been used as toilet paper. Some of the authors were using half-baked ideas to write the series. Could the books been better, Yes for several years the series ran out of gas. I think the authors should make us think about this world we were thurst in.
These are a few of thoughts series Il like to read.
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OutlandersVeteran Member Posts:163
| 4/22/2009 9:17 AM |
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Ok, Milennial Man -
Deal with it.
Every writer out there has a fan following, and yes many of them are quite rabid about that particular writers work.
Alan has fans like this, same as Mel, Victor and the others, with the exception of the sociopath.
Also, for the past ten years unlike a lot of other writers, Mark has regularly interacted with the fans, and by doing so has increased his fan base, admirers and has gained the loyalty of these people.
Hell, he even went as far as sending out copies of his books to those who had trouble finding them.
And on top of it, he's the creator of the series and as such is going to have a loyal fan base.
While I'm on it and if you would BOTHER to read the previous posts and other threads, you'll see that Mark DIDN'T leave the series... He was treated with disrespect and very poorly by the company, so he simply stopped writing for it. Those were his words, paraphrased.
THESE are the reasons he has the rabid fan base.
Laurence James had a fanbase like this. I'm STILL even after all these years a fan of his orignal 33 DL novels. The times he and I had been in contact are fond memories of mine.
And if you think that I'm scolding you because I'm a fan of Mark's, that's partially the case. The other part of this is the fact that despite OL, Mark and I have been 'gasp' FRIENDS for the past 12 years!
Chris
[This post was slightly edited by Lokheed]
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Ron MilesWebsite Owner  Commander In Chief Posts:864 
| 4/22/2009 10:30 AM |
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Chris, I edited your post a little. If you have any questions or concerns about it, feel free to contact me offline and we can talk about it.
Millennial Man, I get what you are saying and agree in principal although not entirely. Outlanders was unique among GE series because for more than a decade it was written entirely by its creator. Laurence James pulled off 33 books in a row on Deathlands, and he didn't create the series. With Mark, he created the Outlanders concept from the ground up and the first 26 books are either entirely by him or in three cases he was intimately involved with the story being written by another author. Out of the first 45 books in the series, 38 are either by Mark or have his direct influence. During the time period those books were being written, Mark actively engaged with his fans here on the web and built a very vocal and loyal fan base. I don't find it the least bit surprising or objectionable that loyal fans are unhappy that Mark is no longer writing for the series, particularly since his absence is not by his own choice.
That being said, JamesAxler.com is not a Mark Ellis fan site (you can find his official website over at MarkEllisInk.com ), and will continue to cover the new Outlanders books as they are published. Given the long dark period that Deathlands went through after losing Laurence James I expect Outlanders to unfortunately go through the same thing. It is almost certainly going to be plagued with the same kind of continuity issues and lack of character growth, which is particularly saddening given that continuity and character growth are two of the strongest selling points of Outlanders through the first 45 books.
"Sadly then I knew the answer. All her life she was a dancer, but no one ever played the song she knew." - The Residents
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