It will certainly be interesting to see how it works. Rogue Angel has cranked them out at six per year, and by and large they have been pretty decent. I am definitely looking forward to more DL books from Milan. He seems very well suited for the material.

I thought Victor's RA novels were pretty good, but never read his DL books yet. Does this mean he has left the RA series?

A lot of us always wished Mark would come back to DL and work his special magic on the series again.

That seems.... unlikely.

Posted By Ron Miles on 23 Mar 2009 01:15 PM
That seems.... unlikely.

Sadly

Posted By Ron Miles on 23 Mar 2009 01:15 PM
That seems.... unlikely.

Thats why I used the past tense--'used to'.

But maybe if somebody at GE asked him nicely--them doing that is probably what is unlikely.

And it IS sad.

Ok, I am rewording this post because it came across poorly and also presumed to speak for someone else. So let me rephrase this: Mark wrote three books for Deathland more than a decade ago. His work on Outlanders speaks for itself, but I find it highly unlikely that he would ever write for Deathlands again no matter how nicely GE asked him. That's just my own observation based on more than a decade of running this website. Stranger things have happened, but I would sooner see him coming back to Outlanders than I would to Deathlands.

Posted By The Phantom on 23 Mar 2009 01:29 AM
I thought Victor's RA novels were pretty good, but never read his DL books yet. Does this mean he has left the RA series?

Based on his tweets, he just recently turned in is final (at least for now) Rogue Angel book and will be focusing on Deathlands for the time being.

I know it's been quite some time since I've posted on these forums, but inasmuch as my name has been invoked, here I am--sort of like an online version of Candyman.

And as long I've been conjured, I might as well separate some facts from supposition as far my involvement with DL is concerned.

As the writer who has logged the most credentials in the "Axlerverse", both in the sheer volume of years and the number of books, I figure I'm entitled.

Posted By Ron Miles on 23 Mar 2009 05:01 PM
Mark wrote three books for Deathland more than a decade ago.

True, but those three books as well as uncredited contributions to two others, resonated for years down the line.

Not only was I the first writer other than Laurence James to write DL, elements I created for those books were picked up and carried by writers who came after me...from concepts (human mutations being the result of genetic engineering instead of the complete impossibility of environmental factors), to characters (Silas Jamaisvous), to places (the Anthill Complex).

Other things were picked up and carried as well--that the "nukecaust" wasn't as quite as simple-minded a scenario as an evil Commie sneak attack, that the Totality Concept was far greater in scope than was initially posited, that the mat-trans units didn't operate by Einsteinian physics and so forth and so on.

Even after I turned in Nightmare Passage (nee' Hell Eyes), I was asked by Gold Eagle on at least three different occasions to write more books in the series, but I was just too over-extended with Outlanders at the time.

Veteran members of this site know that Raboy's wish that I would write more DL books is by no means the first time such sentiments were expressed here.

Those wishes were posted quite frequently by a number of different members over the years, probably going back to the very first Axler forum...which I think might have appeared along about the mid-Devonian Age.

Speaking of which--

I participated in all of the prototypical versions of Jamesaxler.com, way back in the dark days when the message boards consisted primarly of howls of "GOsT WriTTeRZ MuSt DYE!!!!!"

I stuck it out when no other writer wanted to have anything to do with DL fans, sometimes taking the crazed heat for books produced by writers other than myself.

But, basically through persistence, me, Ron, Chris Van Deelen and a couple of other fans forced the Laurence James-only crowd (which in reality consisted only of two or three whackadoos with mutiple screen-names and way too much time to waste) to accept the fact that other writers had equally valid takes on DL.

(Granted, not all DL writers had valid takes...particularly that disturbing pedophiliac flirtation which appeared in a few books about five years ago.)

Anyhow...

With Ron's kind indulgence, I've taken advantage of my "Elder Statesman" status here in order to clear up some misconceptions and misapprehensions. The unadorned facts are easy enough to verify simply by looking at the book section here.

Posted By Ron Miles on 23 Mar 2009 05:01 PM
Stranger things have happened, but I would sooner see him coming back to Outlanders than I would to Deathlands.

Well...speaking of Outlanders (you know...the series I created and which has been consecutively published for a dozen years?)despite what some people might want you to believe (certainly for their own ends), I didn't quit.

There's a game of "Let's Pretend" going on and I don't feel much like playing it.

Posted By Ron Miles on 23 Mar 2009 05:01 PM
Mark wrote three books for Deathland more than a decade ago.

True, but those three books as well as uncredited contributions to two others, resonated for years down the line.

Not only was I the first writer other than Laurence James to write DL, elements I created for those books were picked up and carried by writers who came after me...from concepts (human mutations being the result of genetic engineering instead of the complete impossibility of environmental factors), to characters (Silas Jamaisvous), to places (the Anthill Complex).



Wouldn’t the other DL writers have to have READ your books in order to pick up on the insights you mention? Those same assumptions should have been obvious to anyone who’s passed high school biology—I frankly doubt that LJ had. I personally have never read a single, post-LJ Deathlands—I was however under contract to Scientific American/W.H. Freeman from 1992-1999, coauthoring an 1800-page college biology text. Obviously, a considerable portion of that material dealt with genes as the mechanism of inheritance and related environmental topics. I got my first DL contract October 6, 1995.

The idea that your three DLs somehow had a “cascade effect” on subsequent books isn’t proven out by the facts. As good as they might have been, GE did not pass your books out to the stable for the other writers to read and follow. I had never even heard of you until after you published the first OL, and I'd worked for the company for fifteen years by then.

More to the point, no single DL author who came after LJ has had ANY substantial impact on the series. And that includes me.

Posted By AP on 24 Mar 2009 01:07 PM
Wouldn’t the other DL writers have to have READ your books in order to pick up on the insights you mention?

Er...they did.

Otherwise, how did concepts and characters I created end up in their books?

Posted By AP on 24 Mar 2009 01:07 PM
The idea that your three DLs somehow had a “cascade effect” on subsequent books isn’t proven out by the facts. As good as they might have been, GE did not pass your books out to the stable for the other writers to read and follow.

Actually, it's your only interpretation of the facts based primarily on assumption that's not proven out.

GE did indeed pass out the first two, maybe even all three of my DL books to some of the "stable", but I wasn't referencing that.

Mel Odom, Terry Collins and I conferred on the more "legitimate" SF direction of DL...we all wanted to stay on the same page as far as the SF elements were concerned.

That's also one of the reasons the first batch of post-LJ books still retained a degree of book-to-book continuity. We told each other what we were doing.

Posted By AP on 24 Mar 2009 01:07 PM
I had never even heard of you until after you published the first OL, and I'd worked for the company for fifteen years by then

Well, I guess we're about even there...I had never even heard of you until the then-editor of DL said you had no interest in conferring with me, Terry and Mel.

Posted By AP on 24 Mar 2009 01:07 PM
Those same assumptions should have been obvious to anyone who’s passed high school biology—I frankly doubt that LJ had.

On that we're in complete agreement.

However, whether the genetic engineering origin for the "muties" was obvious to anybody who had high school biology is irrelevant, since the genetic engineering explanation never appeared in any book until Stoneface.

Posted By AP on 24 Mar 2009 01:07 PM
More to the point, no single DL author who came after LJ has had ANY substantial impact on the series. And that includes me.

I never claimed that my DL contributions (or specifically Stoneface) had a substantial or lasting impact on the series as a whole...I stated only that they influenced some of the books that followed...which the facts do indeed bear out.

Anyway...by your own admission, if you haven't read any post-LJ DL how could you know one way or the other?

Otherwise, how did concepts and characters I created end up in their books?

The concepts (genetic engineering, etc.) were widely accessible at the time; you anonymously cowrote the books in which the characters appeared (Dark Emblem).

Actually, it's your only interpretation of the facts based primarily on assumption that's not proven out.

GE did indeed pass out the first two, maybe even all three of my DL books to some of the "stable", but I wasn't referencing that.

Mel Odom, Terry Collins and I conferred on the more "legitimate" SF direction of DL...we all wanted to stay on the same page as far as the SF elements were concerned.

That's also one of the reasons the first batch of post-LJ books still retained a degree of book-to-book continuity. We told each other what we were doing.

Posted By AP on 24 Mar 2009 01:07 PM
I had never even heard of you until after you published the first OL, and I'd worked for the company for fifteen years by then

Well, I guess we're about even there...I had never even heard of you until the then-editor of DL said you had no interest in conferring with me, Terry and Mel.

Having worked for the company for 15 years at that point, having seen many editors and writers come and go, I felt I had earned the right to be left alone to do my job.

However, whether the genetic engineering origin for the "muties" was obvious to anybody who had high school biology is irrelevant, since the genetic engineering explanation never appeared in any book until Stoneface.

If no one but Odom and Collins read your three DL books, what difference does it make?

Anyway...by your own admission, if you haven't read any post-LJ DL how could you know one way or the other?

If GE felt a change was necessary in LJ's canon, characters, storylines, etc, Feroze would have certainly informed the authors working on the series. Duh.

Posted By AP on 24 Mar 2009 03:08 PM
The concepts (genetic engineering, etc.) were widely accessible at the time;

Of course the concepts were...I didn't state otherwise but they had not appeared in DL prior to Stoneface.

Whether such concepts as quantum physics and pantropic science were widely accessible is irrelevant--they hadn't appeared in DL before Stoneface...and certainly the DL editor(s) at the time was unfamiliar with them.

Posted By AP on 24 Mar 2009 03:08 PM
you anonymously cowrote the books in which the characters appeared (Dark Emblem).

Untrue. I contributed to Dark Emblem, which was blatantly obvious from the outset since it featured a crossover with the Outlanders novel Omega Path.

Besides, unless things have changed the only way you can write a DL novel--much less co-write one--is anonymously.

Posted By AP on 24 Mar 2009 03:08 PM
If no one but Odom and Collins read your three DL books, what difference does it make?

Well, the difference is--Mel, Terry and me produced the lion's share of DL books for the next three or so years...and of course the Baronies trilogy by Nick Pollotta featured my character of Silas Jamaisvous and referenced the Anthill and genetic engineering, years after Stoneface was released.

Posted By AP on 24 Mar 2009 03:08 PM
Having worked for the company for 15 years at that point, having seen many editors and writers come and go, I felt I had earned the right to be left alone to do my job.

I wasn't passing judgement--I made the statement in response to yours.

You felt you had earned the right to be left alone after all those years, I feel much the same way now.

Posted By AP on 24 Mar 2009 03:08 PM
If GE felt a change was necessary in LJ's canon, characters, storylines, etc, Feroze would have certainly informed the authors working on the series. Duh.

Ooh...kay...

If you say so.

Clarification--although aspects of bio-engineering had appeared in a couple of pre-Stoneface books, it hadn't been established that deliberate genetic manipulation was responsible for the "mutie" races until Stoneface.

Posted By Jax2 on 24 Mar 2009 06:07 PM

Posted By AP on 24 Mar 2009 03:08 PM
The concepts (genetic engineering, etc.) were widely accessible at the time;

Of course the concepts were...I didn't state otherwise but they had not appeared in DL prior to Stoneface.

Whether such concepts as quantum physics and pantropic science were widely accessible is irrelevant--they hadn't appeared in DL before Stoneface...and certainly the DL editor(s) at the time was unfamiliar with them.

My point was, so what? Where is the Big Whoop? It didn't change the series. We seem to talking in circles.

Bottom line: we both worked for the same wretched skinflints for many years; because of that we have many more things in common than not. If you want to continue the discussion, let’s do it in PMs.

To clarify what I first posted in this thread about Victor Milan: I have read and enjoyed his legit science fiction (ever since I saw one of his books displayed in the Seattle Science Fiction Museum); he has published sf books for a number of MAINSTREAM houses over a couple of decades, and continues to do so. Although I haven’t read Vengeance Trail, Ron and I have had conversations about it, both on the phone and in person. I respect Ron’s intellect and his opinion about pulp fiction. I respect Victor’s track record and professional skill. I think he will do a great job on DL.

Um...you remember that you initiated this medley with me, not the other way around, right?

I was clarifying statements that were made about me by third parties. I didn't make the Big Whoop..that was pretty much your purview. I never said my contributions changed the series...that was your interpretation.

But--

You are absolutely 100 percent right that the both of us most likely have more in common than not.

I've established my bona fides as a creator many times over, you've established your bona fides as a creator many times over.

There's limited entertainment value in performing forensic examinations of books that were published, as Ron pointed out, over a decade ago.

We've probably plumbed those depths and bottomed out.

As for the "wretched skinflints"...well...I wish cheapness was the only vice demonstrated by that quarter.

Posted By Jax2 on 24 Mar 2009 07:17 PM
There's limited entertainment value in performing forensic examinations of books that were published, as Ron pointed out, over a decade ago.

We've probably plumbed those depths and bottomed out.

Maybe so, but it was sort of like old times there for awhile!


This place was a lot more entertaining when you posted here regularly.

Gentlemen,
I just wanted to take a moment to thank both of you for posting here, and for being civil with each other despite your differences. I do appreciate both of your contributions.

(On a side note, this quote thing is driving me batty. I really gotta figure out what the deal is with that.)

Most OL fans felt Milan did a shockingly poor job with his fill-in OL novels...amateurish even. A couple of the books were really terrible stuff--.take a look at the reviews.

Posted By AP on 24 Mar 2009 Bottom line: we both worked for the same wretched skinflints for many years;

Probably the main reason the skinflints are so wretched is they know that your books and Marks books will be, collected, read and discussed long after all the editors, copy-editors, proof readers have been fired, quit or died and nobody will know who they are or even care.

The only way they can deal with that is to act wretchedly towad the creative people.