Ron MilesWebsite Owner  Commander In Chief Posts:864  
| 3/25/2009 9:05 AM |
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Most OL fans felt Milan did a shockingly poor job with his fill-in OL novels I definitely did not like his OL novels at all. That being said, his DL books have been very, very good. I have also enjoyed his Rogue Angel books (although not quite as much as Mel Odom's contributions to that series). I think OL was just a poor fit for him. If you haven't read them, check out Thunder Road or The Chosen and you'll see what I mean. "Sadly then I knew the answer. All her life she was a dancer, but no one ever played the song she knew." - The Residents
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APPublished Author  Veteran Member Posts:346 
| 3/25/2009 9:38 AM |
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Posted By Raboy on 25 Mar 2009 08:46 AM
Most OL fans felt Milan did a shockingly poor job with his fill-in OL novels...amateurish even. A couple of the books were really terrible stuff--.take a look at the reviews.
Posted By AP on 24 Mar 2009 Bottom line: we both worked for the same wretched skinflints for many years;
Probably the main reason the skinflints are so wretched is they know that your books and Marks books will be, collected, read and discussed long after all the editors, copy-editors, proof readers have been fired, quit or died and nobody will know who they are or even care.
The only way they can deal with that is to act wretchedly towad the creative people.
Like I said before, it's the BUSINESS PLAN, not the individual people who work for GE. Both sides of the desk, writers and editors, are victims of it. Being a fill-in writer on a long-established series with a single author is an incredibly difficult task; particularly if you haven't followed the books from the beginning. And the catch-up is complicated by deadline pressures (which readers are unaware of), and in GE's case by the lack of editorial input at the Content and Developmental level. Basically, the new writers on series are given a contract, a deadline, and booted out the cargo door at 15K feet. Again, this is the BUSINESS PLAN in action. |
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| 3/25/2009 11:58 AM |
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Poor fit?
That excuse might have worked with the first couple of Milan's OL books but since they became progressively worse--increasingly sloppy research, poor characterization and even outright stupid---we all began to realize that he didn't give a damn.
Besides, with only the one other author who apparently offered his help with the details, Milan's job to get things right was much easier than a dozen DL writers trying to coordinate plots and characters.
It wasn't just a poor fit since his books never improved, they just became worse. Milan relied more and more on what we started calling "Butt Pull Bonanzas". ..like the one with Brigid carrying an interphaser in her back or the other one with Domi suddenly knowing how to pilot a stealth aircraft.
Over the holidays I finally read Milan's final travesty, Closing the Cosmic Eye, and sorry--"poor fit" doesn't explain it away or excuse it away.
We've had this discussion on these boards many times over the years and I suppose it really doesn't make any difference now.
As for the Gold Eagle Business Plan...people made the plan. People can change the plan and I'm sure they do when it suits them.
Speaking for the fans of Outlanders and Mark who participated on JA.com for many years, I cannot describe how disgusted we are that GE would treat him in such a rotten, disrespectful way and the only result is that we, the consumers who faithfully BOUGHT his series for year after year for over a decade, have been cheated out of the opportunity to continue doing so.
So because of the Plan, I no longer can buy my favorites series written by one of my favorite authors.
That's some brilliant "Plan", Gold Eagle.
Maybe they should come up with another long-lived mega-hit like Room 59 to find new readers?
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Ron MilesWebsite Owner Commander In Chief Posts:864
| 3/25/2009 12:09 PM |
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Posted By Daniel on 25 Mar 2009 11:58 AM
Maybe they should come up with another long-lived mega-hit like Room 59 to find new readers?
That would be Rogue Angel. Shame about Room 59, I liked it. Especially the ones by Jonathan Morgan. "Sadly then I knew the answer. All her life she was a dancer, but no one ever played the song she knew." - The Residents
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 3/25/2009 12:54 PM |
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Posted By Daniel on 25 Mar 2009 11:58 AM
As for the Gold Eagle Business Plan...people made the plan. People can change the plan and I'm sure they do when it suits them.
Speaking for the fans of Outlanders and Mark who participated on JA.com for many years, I cannot describe how disgusted we are that GE would treat him in such a rotten, disrespectful way and the only result is that we, the consumers who faithfully BOUGHT his series for year after year for over a decade, have been cheated out of the opportunity to continue doing so.
So because of the Plan, I no longer can buy my favorites series written by one of my favorite authors.
That's some brilliant "Plan", Gold Eagle.
Okay, one more try. Just to make sure I got the point across. The "people" who make the Business Plan are NOT THE EDITORS! The editors are wage slaves, just like the writers. Just like the writers, they either follow their marching orders or they get fired. The "people" who make and delegate the Business Plan are the corporate executives, middle managers, and lawyers who run Harlequin Enterprises, Ltd. If you have a beef, you need to take it up with them. |
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Cerberus Man Basic Member Posts:144 
| 3/26/2009 8:30 AM |
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The final verdict on Milan's OL books was rendered by OL fans some time ago...the word "travesties" seemed to be okay with everybody.  I've hung out here and over at Mark's forums for enough years to learn that Harlequin and its other imprints don't operate like Gold Eagle, so obviously there is more than Business Plan at work. I've also served in the military long enough to learn that if by following any kind of plan you act in bad faith, dishonestly or dishonorably, such actions are the responsibility of the individual, not the plan. "It's better to have a blaster and not need it than to need it and--"
"Oh, spare me," Brigid said irritably.
(Kane and Brigid Baptiste from Armageddon Axis)
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 3/26/2009 11:21 AM |
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Posted By Cerberus Man on 26 Mar 2009 08:30 AM
I've hung out here and over at Mark's forums for enough years to learn that Harlequin and its other imprints don't operate like Gold Eagle, so obviously there is more than Business Plan at work.
I've also served in the military long enough to learn that if by following any kind of plan you act in bad faith, dishonestly or dishonorably, such actions are the responsibility of the individual, not the plan. Thank you for your service. I'd be interested to learn what you know about the operation of Harlequin and its other imprints. Can you elaborate? Your first statement above assumes that each imprint isn't an independent company; that each one is working under exactly the same Business Plan. From what I've seen of the various imprints, and imprint contracts, there is more than one Business Plan at work. You're right, obviously. Individuals can act in bad faith to undercut a good plan. Neither of us know precisely what GE's plan is. My take on it is based on what's been done to me, and done to all the other writers since the company was started--through a progression of different editorial directors. If you want to believe the bad stuff is personal based on what you've been told, that's your right. I happen to believe it's systemic, and that it was there from beginning. |
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Jax2Published Author Veteran Member Posts:269 
| 3/26/2009 3:57 PM |
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I'm going to weigh in on this topic for a moment...I won't delve into much detail because I don't think there's much interest in the topic, particularly among more recent members of JA.com.
But--
The operation of Gold Eagle is completely different from other Harlequin imprints.
Its operating model is nothing like Mira, Luna or Red Ink...maybe the closet to GE would be Harlequin Nascar.
And that's just an uneducated and not-very-serious guess.
So--in my opinion at least--anything systemic is due more to the individual than to the plan.
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 3/26/2009 5:35 PM |
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Posted By Jax2 on 26 Mar 2009 03:57 PM
I'm going to weigh in on this topic for a moment...I won't delve into much detail because I don't think there's much interest in the topic, particularly among more recent members of JA.com.
But--
The operation of Gold Eagle is completely different from other Harlequin imprints.
Its operating model is nothing like Mira, Luna or Red Ink...maybe the closet to GE would be Harlequin Nascar.
And that's just an uneducated and not-very-serious guess.
So--in my opinion at least--anything systemic is due more to the individual than to the plan. I don’t think we have a disagreement here at all. My point is, GE’s BUSINESS PLAN (specifically the relationship between publisher and author) from the very beginning was different than any other mainstream paperback publisher. And that difference permitted, maybe even encouraged the individual excesses you are talking about. GE is and always has been uniquely "exploitative." With one notable exception, OL, it is all writer for hire. Writers for hire get a flat fee no matter how well the books sell. They have no ownership in the series, no share in the profits derived from their creative product. If you were going to present this as a bullet point in a Business Plan, it might read: All WRITERS ARE EXPENDABLE. Sure in 1983-1996, GE paid token “royalties” (2.4% of cover, instead of the standard 6% at the time). Then they took the tokens away, and along with the tokens went the royalty statements, so from then on writers for hire had no idea of their sales. Bullet Point Number Two might well be: KEEP WRITERS IGNORANT. (In the fifth newsletter on my website, www.officialalanphilipson.com, I reprinted and analyzed my last GE “royalty statement.” If you haven’t looked at it, you might find it entertaining.) Then there is the matter of punishment, and the loopholes permitting same. From the beginning, it seemed that whenever an established writer demanded more money or a better deal, a newbie writer (unknowingly working for even less) would be assigned to the series. See Bullet Point One: All Writers are Expendable. Bullet Point Number Three could well be: KEEP WRITERS SCARED. Of course these are just wild speculations on what might be part of an imaginary Business Plan, offered strictly for amusement purposes only. |
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| 3/26/2009 6:57 PM |
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It seems to me that to avoid these "bullet points", intercommunication amongst the writers would be something to consider. When ever the powers that be try to use tactics like these, the workers should always end run them and that can't be done without communication amongst themselves. If you're informed, it makes it much harder for the bosses to screw you.
Just my opinion anyway
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Ron MilesWebsite Owner Commander In Chief Posts:864
| 3/26/2009 8:00 PM |
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What would be their motivation to do that? "Art"? They aren't even employees, they are contracted temps who get paid the same whether the book sells ten copies or ten thousand. Certainly there is a certain amount of pride to be had in the work you do, but pride and two bucks won't even get you a cup of coffee these days. Specifically, the writers have no control over the order the books will be published. They may know the proposed order of publication, but the editor can and does change that order for any number of reasons. So if the the writers kept tight communication so that each book would directly lead into the next, and then the publisher decides to flip the order for some arbitrary reason, then the authors look like idiots and the readers blame them for bad continuity.
But even if their plan worked, and they snuck in actual increased levels of quality to the series, what do they get out of it? Their name isn't on the cover of the book. You and I know who they are, but we are a vanishingly small minority of the readership. Most of the folks who plunk down their cash for the new Deathlands think there really is some guy named James Axler out there, cranking out the books for the last two decades. So these cunningly skilled authors manage to get high acclaim among perhaps a dozen readers, nobody else knows who they are, and since they don't get royalties they don't get to pocket any extra cash for their hard work. Instead, they see the publisher make more money while they get the scraps.
I wish it were different. I wish the series had better continuity, and that the quality of the stories were consistently high instead of being hit or miss. I also wish I had moved all of my 401k money into a cash position six months ago, but wishing doesn't get me much.
"Sadly then I knew the answer. All her life she was a dancer, but no one ever played the song she knew." - The Residents
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Millennial Man New Member Posts:34
| 3/26/2009 10:17 PM |
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I have a question? Can the writers/or editors talk to the CEOs of either Harlequin or Gold Eagleand express their concerns where DL or OL is going?
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| 3/27/2009 12:34 AM |
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If the genius "edtiors' at GE can't figure out a way to keep their most popular and best-selling writers, talking to the CEOs won't make any difference.
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| 3/27/2009 10:15 AM |
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Editorial abuses and idiocy have been touched on here a few times over the years and it's refreshing to see it brought out in the open by people who have direct experience with it. A welcome change from discussions about new guns!
I remember posting here in years past about how I think the GE model is ass-backward, that they think it's the series, not the creators that are important... so they use the revolving door process, assuming that no matter how bad (or in the case of Milan's fill-in OL books how stupid) they get, the series itself is important and we consumers are too dumb to know the difference between a good book or a bad one or when a previously intelligent series suddenly goes stupid.
Except for tie-in books like Star Trek or Star Wars, no other book publisher does that--and with Star Trek and Star Wars books, the real writer's name is put on the cover, not some dumb-ass "house name".
The only way we the consumer can have any say is with our money. I started reading OL back in the summer of 1997 when I was 13 and for several years I bought all the OL audio books direct from Graphic Audio.
I stopped buying the audio books when I found out Mark was denied royalties and I stopped buying the novels last fall when I found out he was not writing them.
When and if Mark returns to OL, then I'll happily shell out my money for the books again...if he starts getting a cut from the audio book versions that Graphic Audio has been churning out for YEARS, I'll start buying them again.
In this economy, people don't need a lot of excuses to curtail their buying habits. In a way, I'm relieved I don't feel compelled to buy OL any more. I haven't bought a GE book since August of 08 and I have no intention of changing that.
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Cerberus ManBasic Member Posts:144
| 3/28/2009 11:20 AM |
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"It's better to have a blaster and not need it than to need it and--"
"Oh, spare me," Brigid said irritably.
(Kane and Brigid Baptiste from Armageddon Axis)
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APPublished Author Veteran Member Posts:346
| 3/28/2009 7:35 PM |
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Posted By Daniel on 27 Mar 2009 10:15 AM
Editorial abuses and idiocy have been touched on here a few times over the years and it's refreshing to see it brought out in the open by people who have direct experience with it. A welcome change from discussions about new guns!
I remember posting here in years past about how I think the GE model is ass-backward, that they think it's the series, not the creators that are important... so they use the revolving door process, assuming that no matter how bad (or in the case of Milan's fill-in OL books how stupid) they get, the series itself is important and we consumers are too dumb to know the difference between a good book or a bad one or when a previously intelligent series suddenly goes stupid.
Except for tie-in books like Star Trek or Star Wars, no other book publisher does that--and with Star Trek and Star Wars books, the real writer's name is put on the cover, not some dumb-ass "house name".
The only way we the consumer can have any say is with our money. I started reading OL back in the summer of 1997 when I was 13 and for several years I bought all the OL audio books direct from Graphic Audio.
I stopped buying the audio books when I found out Mark was denied royalties and I stopped buying the novels last fall when I found out he was not writing them.
When and if Mark returns to OL, then I'll happily shell out my money for the books again...if he starts getting a cut from the audio book versions that Graphic Audio has been churning out for YEARS, I'll start buying them again.
In this economy, people don't need a lot of excuses to curtail their buying habits. In a way, I'm relieved I don't feel compelled to buy OL any more. I haven't bought a GE book since August of 08 and I have no intention of changing that.
Let’s see, between you and Cerberus Man that’s two $6.99 cover price books GE won’t be selling. Wholesale price at four-something, each. GE’s production/warehouse cost is maybe two bucks of wholesale. Press run of at least 50K books. Yep, losing four bucks total will make the CEOs turn in their sleep. Do you know what would make a refreshing (I had to bite my tongue to keep from inserting the “f” word) change? If people started posting in some detail what they actually LIKE about their favorite writers’ work, as opposed to what they HATE about everyone else’s (writers and editors). I mean really, if you want to promote somebody’s talent, you do it by explaining that talent, making other people see it, and making them want to read the books. Just a thought. |
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| 3/28/2009 9:03 PM |
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Posted By AP on 28 Mar 2009 07:35 PM
Do you know what would make a refreshing (I had to bite my tongue to keep from inserting the “f” word) change? If people started posting in some detail what they actually LIKE about their favorite writers’ work, as opposed to what they HATE about everyone else’s (writers and editors). I mean really, if you want to promote somebody’s talent, you do it by explaining that talent, making other people see it, and making them want to read the books.
Just a thought.
That actually has been tried in recent past incarnations of this board. However, due to thin skins and intentional misinterpretations of commentaries by both DL fans and OL fans, It did not work very well. Throw in some mentally unbalanced problematic posters bent on disruption at any cost, you get a lot of bad blood between the OL/DL encampments. You also get the ghost town that we have today. One can only hope that those problems are past and this new incarnation will be a more pleasant space. It has been very quiet since Ron put in the new software. I have enjoyed the spirited conversation of the last week or so. It almost has the feel of older versions when people actually discussed thier favorite authors without fear of reprisal by the "other camp" I hope it continues |
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Ron MilesWebsite Owner Commander In Chief Posts:864
| 3/28/2009 9:11 PM |
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Posted By Llew32 on 28 Mar 2009 09:03 PM
...One can only hope that those problems are past and this new incarnation will be a more pleasant space.
It has been very quiet since Ron put in the new software. I have enjoyed the spirited conversation of the last week or so. It almost has the feel of older versions when people actually discussed their favorite authors without fear of reprisal by the "other camp"
I hope it continues
You have my assurance that I am fully involved with the board, and dedicated to making it an exciting, interesting, and above all welcoming place to hang out. I took a very light hand in the past, but those days are now over. "Sadly then I knew the answer. All her life she was a dancer, but no one ever played the song she knew." - The Residents
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ChuckPublished Author New Member Posts:55
| 3/31/2009 12:57 AM |
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The other good news about six titles a year? Is that you will be seeing some titles by me! My first DL is already in the pipe and I start my second after I finish a Mack Bolan book.
Whoopee!
Chuck
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Ron MilesWebsite Owner Commander In Chief Posts:864
| 3/31/2009 5:36 AM |
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Chuck, thanks so much for posting! I look forward to seeing your entries in the series. Definitely do not be a stranger here!
"Sadly then I knew the answer. All her life she was a dancer, but no one ever played the song she knew." - The Residents
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